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 semi vrs bolt action
#5750355
05/19/15 01:51 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 11,657
colt45-90
OP
Texas colt45
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OP
Texas colt45
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 11,657 |
I have not reloaded very much for the semi auto's, up to now its been bolt action.
my ?
does the same data for one, work for the other
hold on Newt, we got a runaway
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Re: semi vrs bolt action
[Re: colt45-90]
#5750398
05/19/15 02:10 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,219
dee
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,219 |
It depends on the type of action.
"A vote is like a rifle; it's usefulness depends on the character of the user" Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: semi vrs bolt action
[Re: colt45-90]
#5750408
05/19/15 02:16 PM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 606
red bluff
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 606 |
What I have found on semi auto is to load to the length that will feed well in the mag. I have started using a case gauge on each round after sizing and again after the round is loaded. This allows me to find a problem before it gets stuck 3/4 of the way in the chamber. As far as powder charges most of my manuals the 223 bolt /semi separated but I think that is more about COL. If you are working up a round for that Norine I would do it just like it was a bolt gun.
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Re: semi vrs bolt action
[Re: colt45-90]
#5750456
05/19/15 02:40 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,019
Bar-D
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In my experience, a given load is going to shoot differently in a 22" bolt action vs. a 16" semi auto. Minimum loads in most manuals will give you a starting place for both but I tailor each load for the rifle I intend to shoot it through. Long story short, work loads for a specific rifle for best performance.
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf
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Re: semi vrs bolt action
[Re: Bar-D]
#5750526
05/19/15 03:12 PM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 15,627
QuitShootinYoungBucks
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In my experience, a given load is going to shoot differently in a 22" bolt action vs. a 16" semi auto. Minimum loads in most manuals will give you a starting place for both but I tailor each load for the rifle I intend to shoot it through. Long story short, work loads for a specific rifle for best performance. Good info here, and also above about the overall length.
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Re: semi vrs bolt action
[Re: colt45-90]
#5751607
05/20/15 03:18 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 604
ASIC777
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Loads for a bolt gun with "real slow" powders tend to give port pressures that are too high for semi-autos and really work the action too much. While the direct impingement AR-15/AR10 are a bit more forgiving, the piston driven ARs suffer, and the M1A and M1 can rip rims off the cases and bend the op rods. The problem is the slower powders "bloom" later and begin to work the action while the chamber pressure is still too high and the brass has not had a chance to spring back.
In the piston ARs, unless they employ some form of delay the locking lugs are still under high pressure while when the bolt is trying to to unlock and rotate. One company bleeds a little gas off around the case from the chamber to assist in relieving some of the pressure differential ( inside / outside case ) and therefore relieve the stress on the extractor and bolt lugs.
Most people do not realize that in the Stoner designed AR ( its really amazing ) the port gas is also forced into the bolt carrier to push the bolt FORWARD as the carrier moves to the rear and attempts to rotate the bolt. This allows the stress to be taken off the lugs, saving wear and tear ( and potential breakage) on the bolt lugs, extractor, and barrel extension. In this respect the direct gas impingement systems are a bit more forgiving.
Probably more that you wanted to know. Bottom line, I like to use faster powders for my semis than for my bolts or use a faster powder for both if you want to only have one go to load if using the same caliber in both types of gun.
Lifetime NRA Member
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Re: semi vrs bolt action
[Re: Bar-D]
#5751680
05/20/15 05:35 AM
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 9,713
Mickey Moose
THF Trophy Hunter
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Posts: 9,713 |
...a given load is going to shoot differently in a 22" bolt action vs. a 16" semi auto Removing bolt vs semi-auto from the equation, of course this is the case due to different barrel length.
My botnet is bigger than yours.
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Re: semi vrs bolt action
[Re: ASIC777]
#5751764
05/20/15 12:24 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,152
J.G.
THF Celebrity
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Loads for a bolt gun with "real slow" powders tend to give port pressures that are too high for semi-autos and really work the action too much. While the direct impingement AR-15/AR10 are a bit more forgiving, the piston driven ARs suffer, and the M1A and M1 can rip rims off the cases and bend the op rods. The problem is the slower powders "bloom" later and begin to work the action while the chamber pressure is still too high and the brass has not had a chance to spring back.
In the piston ARs, unless they employ some form of delay the locking lugs are still under high pressure while when the bolt is trying to to unlock and rotate. One company bleeds a little gas off around the case from the chamber to assist in relieving some of the pressure differential ( inside / outside case ) and therefore relieve the stress on the extractor and bolt lugs.
Most people do not realize that in the Stoner designed AR ( its really amazing ) the port gas is also forced into the bolt carrier to push the bolt FORWARD as the carrier moves to the rear and attempts to rotate the bolt. This allows the stress to be taken off the lugs, saving wear and tear ( and potential breakage) on the bolt lugs, extractor, and barrel extension. In this respect the direct gas impingement systems are a bit more forgiving.
Probably more that you wanted to know. Bottom line, I like to use faster powders for my semis than for my bolts or use a faster powder for both if you want to only have one go to load if using the same caliber in both types of gun.
^^Very educational^^
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Re: semi vrs bolt action
[Re: Mickey Moose]
#5751832
05/20/15 01:09 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,019
Bar-D
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...a given load is going to shoot differently in a 22" bolt action vs. a 16" semi auto Removing bolt vs semi-auto from the equation, of course this is the case due to different barrel length. Of course, I understand and I figure the OP understands that. The OP asked if the load data works for one will it work for the other. All I am saying is in my experience yes the data will work but the same load will not shoot the same in a semi auto as it does in a bolt action. I have a 5.56 AR carbine with a 16" 1:9 barrel and I also have a Mossberg MVP Patrol Rifle. It is also a 5.56 16" 1:9 barrel but of course is a bolt action. Apples to apples with my two rifles, the same load shoots differently, not a huge amount but the difference is there.
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf
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Re: semi vrs bolt action
[Re: colt45-90]
#5752096
05/20/15 03:46 PM
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 9,713
Mickey Moose
THF Trophy Hunter
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 9,713 |
bar-d:
You're totally correct - I agree. I was simply removing the assumption and pointing that out to OP in case that wasn't obvious (though I think, again you're probably correct, OP is aware).
Cheers - Mickey
My botnet is bigger than yours.
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Re: semi vrs bolt action
[Re: Mickey Moose]
#5752126
05/20/15 03:59 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,019
Bar-D
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,019 |
bar-d:
You're totally correct - I agree. I was simply removing the assumption and pointing that out to OP in case that wasn't obvious (though I think, again you're probably correct, OP is aware).
Cheers - Mickey 
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf
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Re: semi vrs bolt action
[Re: ASIC777]
#5752182
05/20/15 04:29 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 11,657
colt45-90
OP
Texas colt45
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OP
Texas colt45
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 11,657 |
Loads for a bolt gun with "real slow" powders tend to give port pressures that are too high for semi-autos and really work the action too much. While the direct impingement AR-15/AR10 are a bit more forgiving, the piston driven ARs suffer, and the M1A and M1 can rip rims off the cases and bend the op rods. The problem is the slower powders "bloom" later and begin to work the action while the chamber pressure is still too high and the brass has not had a chance to spring back.
In the piston ARs, unless they employ some form of delay the locking lugs are still under high pressure while when the bolt is trying to to unlock and rotate. One company bleeds a little gas off around the case from the chamber to assist in relieving some of the pressure differential ( inside / outside case ) and therefore relieve the stress on the extractor and bolt lugs.
Most people do not realize that in the Stoner designed AR ( its really amazing ) the port gas is also forced into the bolt carrier to push the bolt FORWARD as the carrier moves to the rear and attempts to rotate the bolt. This allows the stress to be taken off the lugs, saving wear and tear ( and potential breakage) on the bolt lugs, extractor, and barrel extension. In this respect the direct gas impingement systems are a bit more forgiving.
Probably more that you wanted to know. Bottom line, I like to use faster powders for my semis than for my bolts or use a faster powder for both if you want to only have one go to load if using the same caliber in both types of gun.
great info, thanks, my next ?, how do I determine faster powder than those in the manual (that are evidently for bolt actions) & where to start with powder charg? will be working up loads for 30-06 & .270 in an AR platform
hold on Newt, we got a runaway
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Re: semi vrs bolt action
[Re: colt45-90]
#5755667
05/22/15 10:07 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 604
ASIC777
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 604 |
Search Powder burn rate chart. https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Burn%20Rates%20-%202014-2015.pdfThe M1, M1A guys use ( 30-06, .308 ) IMR 4064 and faster powders. They avoid Varget. The newest FGMM and LR sniper round for the .308 uses IMR 4064. The AR platform, if gas impingement, is a bit more forgiving. The 5.56 match guys are using Varget in 20 inch barrels with RIFLE length gas systems ( port is further from the chamber, lower port pressure than a carbine ). Anything slower and they go for gas port modifications ( Adjustable gas plugs, etc ). I load 3031, 4895, and 4064 in the M1A depending on bullet weight ( 150, 168, 175 ) Use the loading annuals. There are about 15 powders that will all work fine. Start low and work up. My gas guns usually find a good node just below the middle of the charts for the faster powders. Not to jump into the barrel length discussion, but it is worth noting that carbines and rifle length gas ports "can" be set at different distances from the chambers and the dwell time ( port pressure working time, i.e. bullet passes port and is still in barrel so port pressure does not fall off yet ) can affect how hard the action is worked. Worth noting that suppressors increase port pressures for this reason. Again, sorry if this is too much information.
Lifetime NRA Member
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Re: semi vrs bolt action
[Re: colt45-90]
#5756026
05/23/15 02:57 AM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 15,689
603Country
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 15,689 |
Back when I had my Browning BAR in 270, I used a medium load of IMR 4064 and it worked great. Good accuracy and didn't bang up the action.
Not my monkeys, not my circus...
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Re: semi vrs bolt action
[Re: colt45-90]
#5757239
05/24/15 01:39 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 14,199
tth_40
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 14,199 |
I really need to find a decent .223 bolt action. All mine are semi's.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers
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Re: semi vrs bolt action
[Re: colt45-90]
#5763851
05/28/15 10:18 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,503
syncerus
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,503 |
I hesitate to add on to the good information in this thread, but it should also be noted that magnum autoloaders like the BAR and the BAR Long/Short Trac appear to be designed for slower burning magnum designed powders. I've been shooting MagPro in my Short-trac 7mm WSM without issue; my round count is still fairly low, though. The previous information about faster burning powders applies to the military and military inspired designs. In the Remington autoloaders, I'd stick closely to the beaten path and go with moderate loads of fairly fast powders, as suggested above for the military designs, as my experiences with them have not been positive, even with factory ammo.
NRA Patriot Benefactor & DSC Lifer
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Re: semi vrs bolt action
[Re: tth_40]
#5765488
05/30/15 12:24 AM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 11,657
colt45-90
OP
Texas colt45
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OP
Texas colt45
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 11,657 |
I really need to find a decent .223 bolt action. All mine are semi's. CZ, Tikka, remy 788, not necessary in that order, most are going to be in a 1-14 twist
hold on Newt, we got a runaway
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Re: semi vrs bolt action
[Re: colt45-90]
#5765788
05/30/15 03:36 AM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 14,199
tth_40
THF Celebrity
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I'm still trying to nail down what twist the Tikka T3 .223's are. I see 1 in 8 twist but I keep hearing they changed the twist.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers
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