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#5750355 - 05/19/15 08:51 AM semi vrs bolt action
colt45 Online   content
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 5383
Loc: bastrop county
I have not reloaded very much for the semi auto's, up to now its been bolt action.
my ?
does the same data for one, work for the other
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#5750398 - 05/19/15 09:10 AM Re: semi vrs bolt action [Re: colt45]
dee Offline
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Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 4664
Loc: Red River way
It depends on the type of action.
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#5750408 - 05/19/15 09:16 AM Re: semi vrs bolt action [Re: colt45]
red bluff Offline
Tracker

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 535
Loc: Texas, Erath
What I have found on semi auto is to load to the length that will feed well in the mag. I have started using a case gauge on each round after sizing and again after the round is loaded. This allows me to find a problem before it gets stuck 3/4 of the way in the chamber. As far as powder charges most of my manuals the 223 bolt /semi separated but I think that is more about COL. If you are working up a round for that Norine I would do it just like it was a bolt gun.

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#5750456 - 05/19/15 09:40 AM Re: semi vrs bolt action [Re: colt45]
bar-d Online   content
Tracker

Registered: 02/03/11
Posts: 802
Loc: Fisher County
In my experience, a given load is going to shoot differently in a 22" bolt action vs. a 16" semi auto. Minimum loads in most manuals will give you a starting place for both but I tailor each load for the rifle I intend to shoot it through. Long story short, work loads for a specific rifle for best performance.
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#5750526 - 05/19/15 10:12 AM Re: semi vrs bolt action [Re: bar-d]
QuitShootinYoungBucks Online   content
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Registered: 11/01/12
Posts: 6447
Loc: Lubbock, TX
Originally Posted By: bar-d
In my experience, a given load is going to shoot differently in a 22" bolt action vs. a 16" semi auto. Minimum loads in most manuals will give you a starting place for both but I tailor each load for the rifle I intend to shoot it through. Long story short, work loads for a specific rifle for best performance.


Good info here, and also above about the overall length.
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#5751607 - 05/19/15 10:18 PM Re: semi vrs bolt action [Re: colt45]
ASIC777 Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 212
Loc: McKinney, TX.
Loads for a bolt gun with "real slow" powders tend to give port pressures that are too high for semi-autos and really work the action too much. While the direct impingement AR-15/AR10 are a bit more forgiving, the piston driven ARs suffer, and the M1A and M1 can rip rims off the cases and bend the op rods. The problem is the slower powders "bloom" later and begin to work the action while the chamber pressure is still too high and the brass has not had a chance to spring back.
In the piston ARs, unless they employ some form of delay the locking lugs are still under high pressure while when the bolt is trying to to unlock and rotate. One company bleeds a little gas off around the case from the chamber to assist in relieving some of the pressure differential ( inside / outside case ) and therefore relieve the stress on the extractor and bolt lugs.
Most people do not realize that in the Stoner designed AR ( its really amazing ) the port gas is also forced into the bolt carrier to push the bolt FORWARD as the carrier moves to the rear and attempts to rotate the bolt. This allows the stress to be taken off the lugs, saving wear and tear ( and potential breakage) on the bolt lugs, extractor, and barrel extension. In this respect the direct gas impingement systems are a bit more forgiving.

Probably more that you wanted to know. Bottom line, I like to use faster powders for my semis than for my bolts or use a faster powder for both if you want to only have one go to load if using the same caliber in both types of gun.
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#5751680 - 05/20/15 12:35 AM Re: semi vrs bolt action [Re: bar-d]
Mickey Moose Offline
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 02/05/12
Posts: 2550
Originally Posted By: bar-d
...a given load is going to shoot differently in a 22" bolt action vs. a 16" semi auto

Removing bolt vs semi-auto from the equation, of course this is the case due to different barrel length.
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#5751764 - 05/20/15 07:24 AM Re: semi vrs bolt action [Re: ASIC777]
FiremanJG Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 17893
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Originally Posted By: ASIC777
Loads for a bolt gun with "real slow" powders tend to give port pressures that are too high for semi-autos and really work the action too much. While the direct impingement AR-15/AR10 are a bit more forgiving, the piston driven ARs suffer, and the M1A and M1 can rip rims off the cases and bend the op rods. The problem is the slower powders "bloom" later and begin to work the action while the chamber pressure is still too high and the brass has not had a chance to spring back.
In the piston ARs, unless they employ some form of delay the locking lugs are still under high pressure while when the bolt is trying to to unlock and rotate. One company bleeds a little gas off around the case from the chamber to assist in relieving some of the pressure differential ( inside / outside case ) and therefore relieve the stress on the extractor and bolt lugs.
Most people do not realize that in the Stoner designed AR ( its really amazing ) the port gas is also forced into the bolt carrier to push the bolt FORWARD as the carrier moves to the rear and attempts to rotate the bolt. This allows the stress to be taken off the lugs, saving wear and tear ( and potential breakage) on the bolt lugs, extractor, and barrel extension. In this respect the direct gas impingement systems are a bit more forgiving.

Probably more that you wanted to know. Bottom line, I like to use faster powders for my semis than for my bolts or use a faster powder for both if you want to only have one go to load if using the same caliber in both types of gun.


^^Very educational^^
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#5751832 - 05/20/15 08:09 AM Re: semi vrs bolt action [Re: Mickey Moose]
bar-d Online   content
Tracker

Registered: 02/03/11
Posts: 802
Loc: Fisher County
Originally Posted By: Mickey Moose
Originally Posted By: bar-d
...a given load is going to shoot differently in a 22" bolt action vs. a 16" semi auto

Removing bolt vs semi-auto from the equation, of course this is the case due to different barrel length.

Of course, I understand and I figure the OP understands that. The OP asked if the load data works for one will it work for the other. All I am saying is in my experience yes the data will work but the same load will not shoot the same in a semi auto as it does in a bolt action. I have a 5.56 AR carbine with a 16" 1:9 barrel and I also have a Mossberg MVP Patrol Rifle. It is also a 5.56 16" 1:9 barrel but of course is a bolt action. Apples to apples with my two rifles, the same load shoots differently, not a huge amount but the difference is there.
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#5752096 - 05/20/15 10:46 AM Re: semi vrs bolt action [Re: colt45]
Mickey Moose Offline
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 02/05/12
Posts: 2550
bar-d:

You're totally correct - I agree. I was simply removing the assumption and pointing that out to OP in case that wasn't obvious (though I think, again you're probably correct, OP is aware).

Cheers - Mickey
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#5752126 - 05/20/15 10:59 AM Re: semi vrs bolt action [Re: Mickey Moose]
bar-d Online   content
Tracker

Registered: 02/03/11
Posts: 802
Loc: Fisher County
Originally Posted By: Mickey Moose
bar-d:

You're totally correct - I agree. I was simply removing the assumption and pointing that out to OP in case that wasn't obvious (though I think, again you're probably correct, OP is aware).

Cheers - Mickey

cheers
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#5752182 - 05/20/15 11:29 AM Re: semi vrs bolt action [Re: ASIC777]
colt45 Online   content
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 5383
Loc: bastrop county
Originally Posted By: ASIC777
Loads for a bolt gun with "real slow" powders tend to give port pressures that are too high for semi-autos and really work the action too much. While the direct impingement AR-15/AR10 are a bit more forgiving, the piston driven ARs suffer, and the M1A and M1 can rip rims off the cases and bend the op rods. The problem is the slower powders "bloom" later and begin to work the action while the chamber pressure is still too high and the brass has not had a chance to spring back.
In the piston ARs, unless they employ some form of delay the locking lugs are still under high pressure while when the bolt is trying to to unlock and rotate. One company bleeds a little gas off around the case from the chamber to assist in relieving some of the pressure differential ( inside / outside case ) and therefore relieve the stress on the extractor and bolt lugs.
Most people do not realize that in the Stoner designed AR ( its really amazing ) the port gas is also forced into the bolt carrier to push the bolt FORWARD as the carrier moves to the rear and attempts to rotate the bolt. This allows the stress to be taken off the lugs, saving wear and tear ( and potential breakage) on the bolt lugs, extractor, and barrel extension. In this respect the direct gas impingement systems are a bit more forgiving.

Probably more that you wanted to know. Bottom line, I like to use faster powders for my semis than for my bolts or use a faster powder for both if you want to only have one go to load if using the same caliber in both types of gun.
great info, thanks, my next ?, how do I determine faster powder than those in the manual (that are evidently for bolt actions) & where to start with powder charg? will be working up loads for 30-06 & .270 in an AR platform
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#5755667 - 05/22/15 05:07 PM Re: semi vrs bolt action [Re: colt45]
ASIC777 Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 212
Loc: McKinney, TX.
Search Powder burn rate chart. https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Burn%20Rates%20-%202014-2015.pdf
The M1, M1A guys use ( 30-06, .308 ) IMR 4064 and faster powders. They avoid Varget. The newest FGMM and LR sniper round for the .308 uses IMR 4064.
The AR platform, if gas impingement, is a bit more forgiving. The 5.56 match guys are using Varget in 20 inch barrels with RIFLE length gas systems ( port is further from the chamber, lower port pressure than a carbine ). Anything slower and they go for gas port modifications ( Adjustable gas plugs, etc ). I load 3031, 4895, and 4064 in the M1A depending on bullet weight ( 150, 168, 175 )
Use the loading annuals. There are about 15 powders that will all work fine. Start low and work up. My gas guns usually find a good node just below the middle of the charts for the faster powders.
Not to jump into the barrel length discussion, but it is worth noting that carbines and rifle length gas ports "can" be set at different distances from the chambers and the dwell time ( port pressure working time, i.e. bullet passes port and is still in barrel so port pressure does not fall off yet ) can affect how hard the action is worked. Worth noting that suppressors increase port pressures for this reason.
Again, sorry if this is too much information.
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#5756026 - 05/22/15 09:57 PM Re: semi vrs bolt action [Re: colt45]
603Country Online   content
Extreme Tracker

Registered: 07/03/12
Posts: 4866
Loc: Central Texas
Back when I had my Browning BAR in 270, I used a medium load of IMR 4064 and it worked great. Good accuracy and didn't bang up the action.

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#5757239 - 05/24/15 08:39 AM Re: semi vrs bolt action [Re: colt45]
tth_40 Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 04/05/10
Posts: 13735
Loc: North Texas.
I really need to find a decent .223 bolt action. All mine are semi's.
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