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 Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure.
#5745900
05/16/15 01:06 AM
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Joined: Nov 2012
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westexhunt
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I traded for a savage action 300 rum from a member here. Got brass dies load data round count etc. I loaded Retumbo under a 208 amax with a cci mag primer starting at 85 gr ladder up to 95 gr in .2 gr increments. First round nothing just firing pin click, primer is dented as it should be. Try again rnd 2 same result. Came home pulled those bullets and I have half burned powder. Never seen this before. I pull them all down start over with wolf mag primers and same loads. (I loaded 338 Lapua rnds with this primer and this powder in similar charges at the same sitting and they are performing fine). Go to shoot the new loads today and nada. Just a dented primer. I tore the firing pin down and checked the spring tension, protrusion etc and seated a primer in an empty brass and boom just fine. Went to shoot again and nothing but a dent. I have not pulled these down yet. I have been reloading for 15 yrs or so and have been able to figure most stuff out. I am going to try some factory ammo next. No reason to doubt this rifle it has fired R22 with the cci primers here. I am using a lee shell holder in a rcbs chucker and not sure if possibly the primer is not seating deep enough but all I use is Lee shell holders and always have.
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Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure.
[Re: westexhunt]
#5745935
05/16/15 01:30 AM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,228
dredd
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First guess is the primer not seated all of the way, but that does not explain the half burnt powder.
I think trying factory ammo is a good idea.
Can you construct a different load with what you have on hand? I.E. Different powder & primer.
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Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure.
[Re: westexhunt]
#5745948
05/16/15 01:38 AM
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Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,585
hetman
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using cci #250 primers ? looking at the Nosler load data for 200 & 210 grain they are buring the retumbo powder at close to your throw weights only difference I see they were using WLRM primers but the CCI 250 should be hotter
![[Linked Image]](http://dc395.4shared.com/img/x5jBfS3Wce/14bb205e9f8/hetsig.gif) "Lesser mortals are pitied for the misfortune in not being born Texan."
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Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure.
[Re: westexhunt]
#5746018
05/16/15 02:18 AM
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Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 473
Beaubien
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If the powder was half burned it would indicate the primer went bang.if the primer went bang the bullet should have come out of the case and lodged in the barrel? That's been my experience any way.
If the powder didn't finish burning it makes me think there would be something wrong with the powder. Probably moisture. Are you sure the powder was burnt?
Is it possible that the bolt isn't closing all the way and the firing pin isn't traveling far enough to hit the primer?
Perhaps some pistol primers got used and the pin isn't long enough to travel the minute extra difference in length? A long shot but that all I got.
Edit, one more idea. When processing the brass could the bottom of the primer pocket have been cut deeper?
Last edited by Beaubien; 05/16/15 02:31 AM.
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Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure.
[Re: westexhunt]
#5746102
05/16/15 03:00 AM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 986
westexhunt
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I pulled down the three bad ones from today. Had to use an Allen wrench to dig out the crusty burned powder. I took some pics but photobucket is being a bee-atch. The boattail of the bullet is discolored almost burned. Obviously it's a powder problem and I am guessing that Retumbo is more sensitive to moisture than other powders that I have used in the past as this can hasn't been open for much more than a year and I have open powders in the same room that are over 15 yrs old and they work fine. Will have to pull them all down and reload it ith new powder. Probably blow the primers and start over with those too. I guess lesson learned on the moisture sensitivity of Retumbo.
Last edited by westexhunt; 05/16/15 03:00 AM.
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Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure.
[Re: westexhunt]
#5746198
05/16/15 03:55 AM
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Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 473
Beaubien
Bird Dog
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Bizarre. Sure would have thought the bullet would have been lodged a short distance into the barrel.
I'll commit this one to memory.
Glad you got it figured out.
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Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure.
[Re: westexhunt]
#5746201
05/16/15 03:58 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,633
DStroud
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Did the primer make a normal sound? If so yes I would agree bad powder. You said there was nothing so I assumed no sound so the primer did not fire?
"Anyone taking up handloading necessarily plays with unknown factors and takes chances. But so does anyone who drives a car,goes to a cocktail party,eats in a restaurant,or gets married."
Jack O'Connor 1963
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Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure.
[Re: westexhunt]
#5746220
05/16/15 04:16 AM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 986
westexhunt
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When I fired a primer in an empty case today it was a loud pop, normal for a primer. I only heard the click as if I dry fired it, when i tried to fire the loaded round but the powder is burned. Will try to post pic.
Last edited by westexhunt; 05/16/15 04:17 AM.
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Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure.
[Re: westexhunt]
#5746232
05/16/15 04:37 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,633
DStroud
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So now you have tried two primer brands with same results. Also the powder worked fine in another cartridge.
I am thinking light primer strikes ....maybe headspace issue due to chamber or sizing?
Have you shot a factory round with no issues?
"Anyone taking up handloading necessarily plays with unknown factors and takes chances. But so does anyone who drives a car,goes to a cocktail party,eats in a restaurant,or gets married."
Jack O'Connor 1963
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Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure.
[Re: westexhunt]
#5746238
05/16/15 04:47 AM
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westexhunt
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Yes two primers on this powder. The powder worked fine in the Lapua (with same wolf primers) but I didn't date the cartridges so not sure when I loaded them, but it was close to the same time). I have not tried factory loads in the 300 rum, could be headspace issue. I will load RUM and Lapua with like charges and components on the same day and see what happens. I marked the lb of retumbo that is involved and will test in the laupa (possibly, don't want to make a bomb).
Last edited by westexhunt; 05/16/15 04:48 AM.
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Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure.
[Re: westexhunt]
#5746246
05/16/15 05:16 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,516
RiverRider
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WEIRD problem. You haven't mentioned the scale you're using, have you? Gotta wonder if you're not seeing the effect of a serious undercharge.
![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/Kqs020H.jpg) "Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure.
[Re: westexhunt]
#5746251
05/16/15 05:48 AM
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Joined: Nov 2012
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westexhunt
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For single stage loading I use an older rcbs. Think it's a 505. It's getting close to a 100% density charge on the 95gr load, top of my ladder test. I started at 85 gr. it's at/above the bottom of the bottle neck. Every other case (hundreds if not thousands of rounds from 22 hornet to 338 Lapua) I have loaded has been close to book velocity. I weigh bullets regularly to test the scale. No doubt in my charge weight.
Last edited by westexhunt; 05/16/15 05:49 AM.
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Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure.
[Re: westexhunt]
#5746369
05/16/15 01:21 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,407
WileyCoyote
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 wow what a ???? ....good luck and stay safe Ron
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"Those who fail to learn from History are doomed to repeat it" ....Santayana
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Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure.
[Re: westexhunt]
#5746548
05/16/15 03:43 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,935
ChadTRG42
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Ok, STOP!!! Do not shoot any more of this ammo. You have a couple serious issues going on here.
First- your load. You are starting your load at 85 grains of Retumbo with a 208 with a CCI #250. The 300 RUM is one of the most aggressive overbore 308 caliber there is. Magnum rounds do not do well with a reduced load. You must be up near max for them to work well, especially with a slow burning powder. Your starting load of 85 grains is lower than my starting data for a 208 is with this round. I would not go less than about 90 to 92 grains. If you plan to reduce the load, switch to a faster burning powder, like R22 or 4831.
Second- your primer. A CCI #250 is a primer with a burn rate hotter than a standard primer, but not as hot as a magnum primer. So it is right between a standard and a magnum primer. You MUST use a hot magnum primer for this 300 RUM ammo with this slow powder. The 2 hottest primers are a Federal 215 and a Remington LR mag primer. You need to run one of these 2 primers for this round.
I have never seen a case with half burned powder like you describe. But what you have going on is a hang fire with too much empty space in the case with a very slow powder and light primer. This is a very bad combination to mess with. If you plan to use Retumbo, work your load up backwards from max. Meaning, if the data shows 95 as max, start a few grain less than that, and work up to 95, maybe a little beyond it. But you would be shooting and wasting ammo starting at 85, and being dangerous doing so.
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Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure.
[Re: westexhunt]
#5746552
05/16/15 03:46 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,935
ChadTRG42
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Also, I used to run a CCI #250 primer for my 338 Lapua ammo. I had some primer ignition issues, so I called ATK tech support (CCI and Federal parent company). I spoke to their top engineer for about an hour about primers and such. I had been seating my primers too deep. The proper depth of a primer needs to be .004" to .008" below flush for proper placement for the anvil to be crushed by the firing pin to ignite the primer compound. So, measure your primer seating depth and make sure you are .004" to .008" below flush. I try for .004" to .006" depth on all my ammo.
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Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure.
[Re: westexhunt]
#5746674
05/16/15 05:21 PM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 986
westexhunt
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I tried a load with 90gr of Retumbo under a wolf mag primer with the same result. This exact load works perfect in 338 Lapua. Im pretty sure I have a powder issue not a dangerous load issue. It was the cci 250 primer the first round. I pulled down all the first loads that had cci primers after the first problem I thought it was primers So I loaded on the same primers my Lapua runs on (wolf).
I had to edit this posted several times trying to reply on my phone was not working. Please re read if you read this post earlier.
Last edited by westexhunt; 05/16/15 05:38 PM.
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Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure.
[Re: westexhunt]
#5746737
05/16/15 06:14 PM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 986
westexhunt
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Is Wolf large rifle magnum primer hot enough to light Retumbo in the 300 ultra? Works fine in 338 Lapua.
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Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure.
[Re: westexhunt]
#5746809
05/16/15 07:45 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,935
ChadTRG42
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I don't know, I don't use any foreign primers. They are not worth it. They have much too high failure rate of ignition for my uses.
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Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure.
[Re: westexhunt]
#5746950
05/16/15 10:32 PM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 986
westexhunt
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I've been through about 5,000 wolf small rifle magnum primers in 5.56. No issues. Many many others have had the same experience.
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Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure.
[Re: westexhunt]
#5746963
05/16/15 10:45 PM
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,053
bo3
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That may be true but now your trying to ignite 3-4x the powder and its a lot slower burning. If it was me, I would want a better primer in the lupa. Those bullets get pricy. You may be getting away with it in the lupa because the powder column is shorter. I'm no expert, just some ideas.
You said you loaded both around the same time correct?
Last edited by bo323; 05/16/15 10:53 PM.
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Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure.
[Re: bo3]
#5746981
05/16/15 10:58 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,160
J.G.
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![[Linked Image]](http://www.precisionriflehunters.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/garvey.jpg) 800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure.
[Re: westexhunt]
#5747118
05/17/15 12:42 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,516
RiverRider
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As I am prone to do when I see something like this, I ran QuickLOAD on it. Cartridge : .300 Rem Ultra Mag
Bullet : .308, 208, Hornady A-MAX 30712
Useable Case Capaci: 101.735 grain H2O = 6.606 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.598 inch = 91.39 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Hodgdon Retumbo
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-10.0 91 85.50 2639 3217 45425 13232 100.0 1.493
-09.0 92 86.45 2668 3287 47053 13299 100.0 1.469
-08.0 93 87.40 2696 3356 48742 13365 100.0 1.445
-07.0 94 88.35 2723 3425 50496 13430 100.0 1.422
-06.0 95 89.30 2751 3495 52317 13494 100.0 1.399
-05.0 96 90.25 2778 3565 54208 13558 100.0 1.377
-04.0 97 91.20 2806 3635 56163 13620 100.0 1.355 ! Near Maximum !
-03.0 98 92.15 2833 3706 58179 13681 100.0 1.334 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 99 93.10 2860 3777 60260 13741 100.0 1.313 ! Near Maximum !
-01.0 100 94.05 2886 3848 62413 13800 100.0 1.293 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 101 95.00 2913 3919 64640 13858 100.0 1.273 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.0 102 95.95 2940 3991 66943 13915 100.0 1.253 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0 103 96.90 2966 4063 69327 13971 100.0 1.234 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.0 104 97.85 2992 4136 71794 14026 100.0 1.215 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 105 98.80 3019 4209 74347 14080 100.0 1.197 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.0 106 99.75 3045 4282 76991 14132 100.0 1.179 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Results caused by ± 5% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 5% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 101 95.00 2969 4072 71973 13619 100.0 1.219 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 5% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 101 95.00 2844 3735 57333 14148 100.0 1.336 ! Near Maximum !
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure.
[Re: westexhunt]
#5747153
05/17/15 01:02 AM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 406
Rocklock
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Aug 2010
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Sounds like powder gone bad.
TC
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Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure.
[Re: RiverRider]
#5747259
05/17/15 02:04 AM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 986
westexhunt
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As I am prone to do when I see something like this, I ran QuickLOAD on it. Cartridge : .300 Rem Ultra Mag
Bullet : .308, 208, Hornady A-MAX 30712
Useable Case Capaci: 101.735 grain H2O = 6.606 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.598 inch = 91.39 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Hodgdon Retumbo
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-10.0 91 85.50 2639 3217 45425 13232 100.0 1.493
-09.0 92 86.45 2668 3287 47053 13299 100.0 1.469
-08.0 93 87.40 2696 3356 48742 13365 100.0 1.445
-07.0 94 88.35 2723 3425 50496 13430 100.0 1.422
-06.0 95 89.30 2751 3495 52317 13494 100.0 1.399
-05.0 96 90.25 2778 3565 54208 13558 100.0 1.377
-04.0 97 91.20 2806 3635 56163 13620 100.0 1.355 ! Near Maximum !
-03.0 98 92.15 2833 3706 58179 13681 100.0 1.334 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 99 93.10 2860 3777 60260 13741 100.0 1.313 ! Near Maximum !
-01.0 100 94.05 2886 3848 62413 13800 100.0 1.293 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 101 95.00 2913 3919 64640 13858 100.0 1.273 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.0 102 95.95 2940 3991 66943 13915 100.0 1.253 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0 103 96.90 2966 4063 69327 13971 100.0 1.234 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.0 104 97.85 2992 4136 71794 14026 100.0 1.215 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 105 98.80 3019 4209 74347 14080 100.0 1.197 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.0 106 99.75 3045 4282 76991 14132 100.0 1.179 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Results caused by ± 5% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 5% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 101 95.00 2969 4072 71973 13619 100.0 1.219 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 5% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 101 95.00 2844 3735 57333 14148 100.0 1.336 ! Near Maximum !
Thank you. My original work up from 85 in increments doesn't seem too far fetched. Whatever the reason I loaded bad powder is the most reasonable explanation. Plenty of critics of the wolf primers and I will try federal to rule that out but it will be under new Retumbo. I am not the only reloader in the country that has reloaded with wolf primers.
Last edited by westexhunt; 05/17/15 02:10 AM.
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Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure.
[Re: westexhunt]
#5747290
05/17/15 02:34 AM
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,053
bo3
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I traded for a savage action 300 rum from a member here. Got brass dies load data round count etc. I loaded Retumbo under a 208 amax with a cci mag primer starting at 85 gr ladder up to 95 gr in .2 gr increments. First round nothing just firing pin click, primer is dented as it should be. Try again rnd 2 same result. Came home pulled those bullets and I have half burned powder. Never seen this before. I pull them all down start over with wolf mag primers and same loads. (I loaded 338 Lapua rnds with this primer and this powder in similar charges at the same sitting and they are performing fine). Go to shoot the new loads today and nada. Just a dented primer. I tore the firing pin down and checked the spring tension, protrusion etc and seated a primer in an empty brass and boom just fine. Went to shoot again and nothing but a dent. I have not pulled these down yet. I have been reloading for 15 yrs or so and have been able to figure most stuff out. I am going to try some factory ammo next. No reason to doubt this rifle it has fired R22 with the cci primers here. I am using a lee shell holder in a rcbs chucker and not sure if possibly the primer is not seating deep enough but all I use is Lee shell holders and always have. If both were loaded at the same time with the same powder and one is working fine, then I wouldn't think its the powder. On second thought it could be the powder is messed up just enough to cause problems in the 300 but I would think accuracy would suffer in the lapua.
Last edited by bo323; 05/17/15 02:40 AM.
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