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#5745900 - 05/15/15 08:06 PM Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure.
westexhunt Offline
Tracker

Registered: 11/05/12
Posts: 862
Loc: San Angelo
I traded for a savage action 300 rum from a member here. Got brass dies load data round count etc. I loaded Retumbo under a 208 amax with a cci mag primer starting at 85 gr ladder up to 95 gr in .2 gr increments. First round nothing just firing pin click, primer is dented as it should be. Try again rnd 2 same result. Came home pulled those bullets and I have half burned powder. Never seen this before. I pull them all down start over with wolf mag primers and same loads. (I loaded 338 Lapua rnds with this primer and this powder in similar charges at the same sitting and they are performing fine). Go to shoot the new loads today and nada. Just a dented primer. I tore the firing pin down and checked the spring tension, protrusion etc and seated a primer in an empty brass and boom just fine. Went to shoot again and nothing but a dent. I have not pulled these down yet. I have been reloading for 15 yrs or so and have been able to figure most stuff out. I am going to try some factory ammo next. No reason to doubt this rifle it has fired R22 with the cci primers here. I am using a lee shell holder in a rcbs chucker and not sure if possibly the primer is not seating deep enough but all I use is Lee shell holders and always have.

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#5745935 - 05/15/15 08:30 PM Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure. [Re: westexhunt]
dredd Offline
Tracker

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 872
Loc: Dallas / Fort Worth Area
First guess is the primer not seated all of the way, but that does not explain the half burnt powder.

I think trying factory ammo is a good idea.

Can you construct a different load with what you have on hand? I.E. Different powder & primer.

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#5745948 - 05/15/15 08:38 PM Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure. [Re: westexhunt]
hetman Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 02/15/15
Posts: 1694
Loc: Addison Tx
using cci #250 primers ? looking at the Nosler load data for 200 & 210 grain they are buring the retumbo powder at close to your throw weights only difference I see they were using WLRM primers but the CCI 250 should be hotter
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#5746018 - 05/15/15 09:18 PM Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure. [Re: westexhunt]
Beaubien Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 02/18/15
Posts: 473
Loc: In the mountains east of ABQ
If the powder was half burned it would indicate the primer went bang.if the primer went bang the bullet should have come out of the case and lodged in the barrel? That's been my experience any way.

If the powder didn't finish burning it makes me think there would be something wrong with the powder. Probably moisture. Are you sure the powder was burnt?

Is it possible that the bolt isn't closing all the way and the firing pin isn't traveling far enough to hit the primer?

Perhaps some pistol primers got used and the pin isn't long enough to travel the minute extra difference in length? A long shot but that all I got.

Edit, one more idea. When processing the brass could the bottom of the primer pocket have been cut deeper?


Edited by Beaubien (05/15/15 09:31 PM)
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#5746102 - 05/15/15 10:00 PM Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure. [Re: westexhunt]
westexhunt Offline
Tracker

Registered: 11/05/12
Posts: 862
Loc: San Angelo
I pulled down the three bad ones from today. Had to use an Allen wrench to dig out the crusty burned powder. I took some pics but photobucket is being a bee-atch. The boattail of the bullet is discolored almost burned. Obviously it's a powder problem and I am guessing that Retumbo is more sensitive to moisture than other powders that I have used in the past as this can hasn't been open for much more than a year and I have open powders in the same room that are over 15 yrs old and they work fine. Will have to pull them all down and reload it ith new powder. Probably blow the primers and start over with those too. I guess lesson learned on the moisture sensitivity of Retumbo.


Edited by westexhunt (05/15/15 10:00 PM)

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#5746198 - 05/15/15 10:55 PM Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure. [Re: westexhunt]
Beaubien Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 02/18/15
Posts: 473
Loc: In the mountains east of ABQ
Bizarre. Sure would have thought the bullet would have been lodged a short distance into the barrel.

I'll commit this one to memory.

Glad you got it figured out.
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#5746201 - 05/15/15 10:58 PM Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure. [Re: westexhunt]
DStroud Online   content
Pro Tracker

Registered: 11/02/11
Posts: 1161
Loc: Waco
Did the primer make a normal sound? If so yes I would agree bad powder. You said there was nothing so I assumed no sound so the primer did not fire?

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#5746220 - 05/15/15 11:16 PM Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure. [Re: westexhunt]
westexhunt Offline
Tracker

Registered: 11/05/12
Posts: 862
Loc: San Angelo
When I fired a primer in an empty case today it was a loud pop, normal for a primer. I only heard the click as if I dry fired it, when i tried to fire the loaded round but the powder is burned. Will try to post pic.


Edited by westexhunt (05/15/15 11:17 PM)

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#5746232 - 05/15/15 11:37 PM Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure. [Re: westexhunt]
DStroud Online   content
Pro Tracker

Registered: 11/02/11
Posts: 1161
Loc: Waco
So now you have tried two primer brands with same results. Also the powder worked fine in another cartridge.
I am thinking light primer strikes ....maybe headspace issue due to chamber or sizing?
Have you shot a factory round with no issues?

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#5746238 - 05/15/15 11:47 PM Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure. [Re: westexhunt]
westexhunt Offline
Tracker

Registered: 11/05/12
Posts: 862
Loc: San Angelo
Yes two primers on this powder. The powder worked fine in the Lapua (with same wolf primers) but I didn't date the cartridges so not sure when I loaded them, but it was close to the same time). I have not tried factory loads in the 300 rum, could be headspace issue. I will load RUM and Lapua with like charges and components on the same day and see what happens. I marked the lb of retumbo that is involved and will test in the laupa (possibly, don't want to make a bomb).


Edited by westexhunt (05/15/15 11:48 PM)

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#5746246 - 05/16/15 12:16 AM Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure. [Re: westexhunt]
RiverRider Online   content
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 6232
Loc: Wise Co.
WEIRD problem. You haven't mentioned the scale you're using, have you? Gotta wonder if you're not seeing the effect of a serious undercharge.
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#5746251 - 05/16/15 12:48 AM Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure. [Re: westexhunt]
westexhunt Offline
Tracker

Registered: 11/05/12
Posts: 862
Loc: San Angelo
For single stage loading I use an older rcbs. Think it's a 505. It's getting close to a 100% density charge on the 95gr load, top of my ladder test. I started at 85 gr. it's at/above the bottom of the bottle neck. Every other case (hundreds if not thousands of rounds from 22 hornet to 338 Lapua) I have loaded has been close to book velocity. I weigh bullets regularly to test the scale. No doubt in my charge weight.


Edited by westexhunt (05/16/15 12:49 AM)

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#5746369 - 05/16/15 08:21 AM Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure. [Re: westexhunt]
WileyCoyote Online   content
Extreme Tracker

Registered: 09/01/04
Posts: 4535
Loc: The Dogwood Capital of Texas
popcorn
wow what a ???? ....good luck and stay safe
Ron
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#5746548 - 05/16/15 10:43 AM Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure. [Re: westexhunt]
ChadTRG42 Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 9433
Loc: Lewisville, TX
Ok, STOP!!! Do not shoot any more of this ammo. You have a couple serious issues going on here.

First- your load. You are starting your load at 85 grains of Retumbo with a 208 with a CCI #250. The 300 RUM is one of the most aggressive overbore 308 caliber there is. Magnum rounds do not do well with a reduced load. You must be up near max for them to work well, especially with a slow burning powder. Your starting load of 85 grains is lower than my starting data for a 208 is with this round. I would not go less than about 90 to 92 grains. If you plan to reduce the load, switch to a faster burning powder, like R22 or 4831.

Second- your primer. A CCI #250 is a primer with a burn rate hotter than a standard primer, but not as hot as a magnum primer. So it is right between a standard and a magnum primer. You MUST use a hot magnum primer for this 300 RUM ammo with this slow powder. The 2 hottest primers are a Federal 215 and a Remington LR mag primer. You need to run one of these 2 primers for this round.

I have never seen a case with half burned powder like you describe. But what you have going on is a hang fire with too much empty space in the case with a very slow powder and light primer. This is a very bad combination to mess with. If you plan to use Retumbo, work your load up backwards from max. Meaning, if the data shows 95 as max, start a few grain less than that, and work up to 95, maybe a little beyond it. But you would be shooting and wasting ammo starting at 85, and being dangerous doing so.

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#5746552 - 05/16/15 10:46 AM Re: Powder ignition problem (or rifle problem) not sure. [Re: westexhunt]
ChadTRG42 Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 9433
Loc: Lewisville, TX
Also, I used to run a CCI #250 primer for my 338 Lapua ammo. I had some primer ignition issues, so I called ATK tech support (CCI and Federal parent company). I spoke to their top engineer for about an hour about primers and such. I had been seating my primers too deep. The proper depth of a primer needs to be .004" to .008" below flush for proper placement for the anvil to be crushed by the firing pin to ignite the primer compound. So, measure your primer seating depth and make sure you are .004" to .008" below flush. I try for .004" to .006" depth on all my ammo.
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