I ordered 20% and had them leave it on the loading dock at FMC in Graham since I wasn't going to make it before they closed on Sat. I got there to find 16% instead of the 20% I ordered. I took it because I figured it was better than not having it out for the deer but how much difference will it make? The price difference is only .50/50lbs so I have always gone with the 20%. If I was going to be back out in the next few weeks I would have left it but unfortunately that's not going to happen.

I have always used 20% and will, but I am now finding that the mineral/trace mineral/vitamin package is way more important. IME deer will eat more 16% than 20%. As green as we are right now in my area, they are not eating any protein at all.

^^^^^^^^^

Not to take this off topic, but thismay be my first year feeding protein. I've been doing a little research but would like real world experience adn answers. What is the real world cost of feeding protein year around and is that absolutey necessary?

Cost is going to be dependent on many variables? Need to know density, buck to doe ratio, age structure, habitat quality, rainfall average, management goals, etc. Is it abslutely necessary? No, but IME it helps a lot in the post rut period, bad years, helps to hold deer close to property and in overall herd quality. It should be used as a supplement, available if or when they need it.

16%, IMO, is more of a maintenance ration. And yes, the mineral ratios are more important than the percentage of protein. In the areas where we have had lots of rain, and where there is a lot of good natural growth, including forbs, 16%, is double now, but once it heats up, and forbs wither, and growth slows down, you might want to go bake to the 20% ration.

For the fawn crop, right now is the most important time in the doe's pregnancy. The last trimester is when the embryos grow the most. After they hit the ground you want Mama to get the best feed possible for her milk production.

In short, 16% okay now, if you have good natural food. 20% for "normal" times, higher than 20%, for free ranging deer is usually a ware of money, because they will poop out what their body doesn't need. It is basically for penned deer.Is

JMO.

I am going to shamelessly re-post an excellent article by Macy Ledbetter... one of the more knowledgeable folks I have come across, or at least one of the most forthcoming

It relates to a 24% protein block, but the info is good.

Russ


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Minimum requirements for normal body function (blood pressure, maintain core body temperature, muscle maintenance, etc) is 12-14%. Deer cannot store or hold a reserve of protein so they expel the rest. Research has proven that a range of 16-20% is ideal for improved body condition and ultimately, antler and fawn production. So if you are feeding a feed in the 16-20% range, all is good. Anything over 20% is a waste of money and resources as deer can't, or won't utilize it. They will expel the remaining protein in the form of urine and feces so you are literally throwing your money away.
Now, under stressful conditions like drought or severe cold, offering a deer too much protein can and will harm them. They will consume it for sure but their bodies struggle with handling it so the hooves will get long (founder) and it will cause rumen bacteria/digestion issues and also give them the runs (weight loss, increased predation through smell, dehydration, etc). So offering "more is better" is NEVER the case in whitetail deer nutrition. Less is better as opposed to more is better because whitetails are browsers and they have a threshold that they live by.
So the 24% block is wasting your money because the deer may use it but only very sparingly. It will sit out in the elements much longer and may help to attract unwanted critters like raccoons, feral hogs or exotics in the neighborhood.
You have to be careful in sheep and goat country because the feed stores like to sell products directed at sheep and goats and not just whitetail deer. Sheep and goats have a rumen like a steel trap, they can and do eat almost anything. They can handle high copper levels and they can handle 45% protein levels for short periods of time. Not a whitetail, he is a picky eater with a wimpy stomach and he will either avoid the food source or eat it and expel it. I would look at the copper levels of this 24% tub and if it is in the double digits, I would save my money and walk away from it.

Macy

Color me skeptical, unless the higher protein food just doesn't taste very good (quite likely depending on what they remove for the extra protein).

For example:
1 lb at 16% = ~3oz of protein.
8 oz at 32% = ~3oz of protein.

This won't be the only food they eat that day, so most of this will get lost in their other forage and absorbed as needed, imo.

My supplier carries both 16% and 20% but from two different manufacturers. He always has the 20%. He "usually" has the 16%. As a result,I feed the Purina 20% exclusively to avoid switching brands and formulations during the year. If there was a significant difference in price, I might switch but convenience wins out.

Heh.. it does not quite work like that, but would be nice if it did, no?

It does not hurt to feed 20%, but some cattle tubs have like 24%. That can cause a problem in the digestive issues of the deer.

An example would be if you ate too much of something... you might not feel too good and thus you might get sick, might have a little (call it bloating to be nice in a public forum.. heh) and that might cause you not to be active, eat as well etc. No-one wants to get sick ad no-one is quite right when they are. Deer are the same way.

Will it kill them to eat 20%? Nah... I think the issue is more with the 24% tubs that can sometimes be sold which are intended for cattle, not deer.

In this climate, lots of water, forbs, things growing etc.. feeding too much protein CAN be bad. Many of the brand name suppliers will fluxuate their blends depending on the time of year and the season.

For instance, in a drought when deer are stressed, feeding them a little more protein is good. They eat less and worse so you augment it. During certain times of the year you feed more or less depending on how the deer are eating.

So, again... to the question of 16 vs 20%.. right now, if you are getting a good amount of rain and things are growing which provide a good solid natural source of protein, you may not need 20% and can actually be detrimental, albeit it will not kill your deer.. heh.. but if you are trying to get the very most out of your programs, paying close attention to a 4% solution might be a difference for you.

Russ

Deer, cattle, sheep and goats are all ruminants , but that doesn't mean they can all eat the same stuff. Copper, which deer need, will kill sheep.

Do some basic research, even online, and you can get more for your feed dollars.

All things in moderation. You can eat a couple ounces of the richest cheesecake in the world and feel fine. If you eat the entire 4lb cake, you're not gonna be feeling too well.

Walmart had the 1gal. Roasted Corn Freaks dang fine print, even with glasses, can't see what it has for protein, its more a sweet & salty instant mineral lick supercharged deer attractant . Havent had any luck with it yet, even hogs havent been impressed with it mixed with corn. Got it in a home made drip bottle. Like others have said lots of forage on the ground, Blessed with the rain, plenty of of brows, see more signs at minneral lick & blocks set out whin weather warms up. Good topic, carry on

I've always been told that you want 16% for does during summer fawning.

Thanks for the input.
Farmers Milling Co (FMC) in Graham makes their own feed. They called and apologized today for the mix up. They also told me the mineral % are the same in both protein levels. We are all greened up right now so there is a better than fair chance this will sit for awhile which is fine because they ate me out of house and home last year... The deer have done well on the mix and it certainly keeps them coming back which is important since I have a small property but no one within miles of me feeds and food plots like I do so my deer density is pretty good for the amount of land I have. They don't necessarily bed there but show up pretty daily when I have the protein going.
The Guaranteed Analysis is:
Crude Protein 16%
" Fat Min 2.5%
" Crude Fiber Max 8%
" Calcium Min .75%
" Calcium Max 1.25%
" Phosphorus Min .5%
Vit A Min 10,000 IU/A
Vit E and D Supplement (no Quantity on label)

Anybody know if antler max has mineral supplements in it, or is it straight protein? Thanks

Just go to the Purina site and download the product sheet link for 16%

I always get a laugh when I read all this discussion about protein "percentage". Deer don't eat "percentages". Unless the deer is eating NOTHING but your protein pellets, the percentage only means how much is delivered "per dose".

If you feed a deer 1 cup of 16% pellets, and another deer a cup of 20% pellets - then the second deer is getting 4% more protein. But if you feed the second deer only a half cup of 20% pellets, then he is actually getting 6% LESS protein that the first deer (all other things being equal).

If your deer are getting a lot of protein from their natural browse, then even 16% protein might be "too much". Heck, you could be in a situation where ALL your supplemental protein is being "wasted".

The reason that they make feed with 20%, 24%, or even 30% protein is that you don't have to feed AS MUCH - to give the deer their optimal/maximum protein supplement.

For me, I don't feed free-choice for a couple of reasons - first, I simply can't afford filling feeders every week. Secondly, I can't make it to lease every week or two to keep the protein filled and unbroken. I used a time-trough LAMCO feeder, and I use a mix (pellets, roasted soybean, etc.) that is probably between 24-30% protein PERCENTAGE. However, I only dump a limited, fixed amount twice a day. Feeding LESS AMOUNT with HIGHER PERCENTAGE is what works for my scenario to give the proper TOTAL AMOUNT of SUPPLEMENTAL protein.

Game cams on the protein feeder and checked regularly gives me an idea of how many deer are being fed, how long it takes for them to eat what is delivered, and even how long the deer stay at the feeder. Adjusting times/feed drop allows me to drop the proper amount, twice a day, so that the deer eat it all up - leaving no waste or overage for hogs, etc.

Of course it's not exact. Always have incidental visitors. But generally I see the same deer, at the same times during the day, who always get there (or come a-runnin') when the feeder goes off, and leave no leftovers.

I may be deluding myself, but I think I am getting them what they need/want quite well - and saving money in the process. (Besides, got them deer trained pretty good to be there when it drops - LOL). Beside, this is a regular, consistent protein delivery which, IMHO, is better than free-choice gorging for a few weeks, then nothing until the feeder is refilled.

Now guys who have 2000, 4000, or even 10,000 lb free-choice feeders - and lots of cash for feed - may follow a different regiment that works for them. Same for breeders or HF operations where they pretty much control all the deer eats.

But I bet that a lot of y'all out there are like me - and could benefit from timed feeding with higher percentage feed.

So don't be too quick to scoff and walk away from higher than 16% protein feeds. They have their place without being wasted.

The deer will still be getting 20% protein. He just ate 50% less of it. If or when he takes another bite that % might go up or down.

The issue with feeding to high % of protein is that you can not control what a deer will eat. One dominant buck at a timered feeder might he three times what the rest of the deer. That can cause digestive issues. Rumen health is important in whitetails. With to high of % of protein deer might not eat any feed for a day or so. Then when they feel better eat again, then cycle continues. That is why if range conditions are bad and you feed alfalfa hay and they are picking out just the leaves. Very high in protein and it can cause deer to not eat regularly.

STXRANCHMAN, I value your opinion and listen closely to what you say - and I understand your point. However, respectfully, I find that hard to swallow. (No pun intended).

It's not the percentage, it's the total grams of protein ingested. If I ate 25 candy bars that were only 10% sugar, vs eating one that was 50% sugar - it wouldn't be any healthier for me and my total sugar ingested would be worse.

As I said, it's different if the deer were eating nothing but the protein pellets - but it a free range conditions, the are eating lots of other stuff. If they ingested 20g of protein, it doesn't really matter if that 20g came from feed that was 5% or 20% - it's still just 20g of protein.

The percentage density at levels of 16%-20% still isn't the majority of what they eat - even just pellets. That's still 80%+ of other stuff. Now if the protein density (percentage) was very high, like 40%, I could see digestive issues arise from the high-density feed.

Furthermore, free-choice would just magnify the issue you bring out - since I see deer all the time gorge themselves on free choice. Whereas, with timed feed in smaller amounts, it prevents them from "overeating" on high density stuff. Timed protein feeders with fixed amount gives, IMHO, a leetle (sic) bit more of that "control" over what they eat that you mentioned.

Most of these talks and studies are done in controlled environments, where the feed and body measurements are tightly controlled. Sure, if you are deer breeder with deer in a pen, and you are feeding protein - I can see where the percentage/density is a real concern. But I can't see where it would be much of an issue in free range deer, unless maybe they had an "unlimited" supply of protein pellets, and there was no control over how much they ate - which is exactly my point on timed, controlled feeding vs free choice.

That point being that with controlled, timed feeding/feeders - higher percentage/density have their place.

I dunno, just my thoughts - lots of smart folks here.

Interesting discussion, and always welcome different opinions and a chance to get better educated.

The % value of protein in a feed that is ingested is the same whether it is 1/2 cup or a full ration is what I am saying. You said differently in your first post then changed what you meant in your second to where I agree with you. The amount of that source of protein they take is what changes not the % value ingested of the feed source. No matter if they take one bite or eat till they are full they are getting the same % value(5%, 10% or 38%) with each bite. Deer are selective feeders by nature. They seek out the younger tender new growth which the highest in protein value. The % in a man-made feed is never going to be the same compared to a natural source for consumption results. Those tender young end shoots of what they are eating is very highest in protein value for the plant they select. They eat a variety of them also. That is where a manufactured feed tries to mimic that to a point with a variety of digestible protein sources. Not one or two but many more sources. The deer IMO also select certain plants at certain times of year for nutritional needs such for their protein needs, for mineral needs or possibly for rumen health. That is why IMO who makes the feed and what is in it is more critical than the % stamped on the bag. That 20% stamp on the bag means it meets the states minimum not the quality or source of the protein in the bag. IMO you get what you pay for with supplemental feeds, you cut corners you get results for the approach. You get above average rainfall and have deer at or below CC and any supplemental feed program makes your herd look great. The herds that look great in a drought have a better management and/or supplemental program plan(that supplemental can be habitat, food plots or bagged feeds) IMO.
You can not really do a study in a controlled environment or wild environment with deer since no two deer will be identical. So you can not really compare results.
If you really want to save money then buy more ammo and kill more deer. That is the cheapest and best route to take. Timer feeding feeding the chow hound deer that get their first may not be the deer you want to feed. It makes you feel better but have you truly seen the results you are after? Mature bucks with larger antlers are what most are wanting. You can do that with numbers management and age. Both are fun and don't cost a whole lot other than your time. Most hunters want to see more deer and that is why they feed. I would rather see less deer but the quality deer be present.
I never quit trying to learn about deer and it is fun to discuss and cuss them.

Thanks Ranchman - Yeah, I expressed myself poorly in the first post and tried to clarify.

Frankly, I think trying to manage the deer on this lease is a waste of time under the current lease rules. For me, it is just a very nice place hunt deer - period. The reason I make this shocking statement is the following:

We are 5800 acres with 10-11 guys hunting. We are allowed to take 1 mature buck, 8pt or better, and a doe. Culls only by advance permission, which is very rare from what I've seen. We have loads of deer. Mostly 8pt. All sorts of 8's - little basket 8's, tall 8's, wide 8's, etc. A few 10's, and a couple of 12's seen over the years. Good doe population and pretty good ratios. Probably 10-15 deer taken each year.

IMHO, there is no way we will ever significantly change the herd unless we shoot a LOT of deer off the place. I'm talking we would need to shoot 50-60 of the poorer quality deer, each year, over several years - and be very selective. That just ain't gonna happen. No one on the lease wants to burn their buck on a crappy 8 - we all hold out until a decent 8 or 10 shows up.

I'm sure there are some 140-150" deer that are out there, but none taken in many years, and rarely even seen. (On side note, the biggest deer I have caught on cam were when I set up "plot cams" far away from feeders - then I've gotten glimpses of deer that are never seen during season).

So my strategy is just to increase the deer traffic through my area. The thinking is that if I get more and more deer coming and going through my area, my chances of seeing a bigger deer increase.

To that end, I feed like crazy and make things very attractive, with a wide selection of feed in multiple areas. I run lots of cams in all sorts of places, and try to determine preferred patterns in/out of my section. At least 50% of the time I hunt away from my stands, often setting up on trails/crossings, meadows where I can possibly catch an irregular deer.

So far, this seems to be working. In my area I have the greatest sighting of "unusual" visitors, like exotics, lions, or deer that no one else ever sees. Of course, being centrally located on one side of the lease, just about every deer that others see on cam make regular visits to my area.

I tell you with certainty that since I started with protein, I am pulling deer from all over the place. They love that stuff. It is interesting to note that, while some deer eating anything I put out, there are other deer that definitely show a preference for one feed over another. For example, for a couple of months I ran roasted soybeans out of one feeder, corn in another, and protein pellets in another, and a tried a bit of alfalfa and cotton seed.

It was very interesting to see that some deer hit all feeders, while I had some deer that would only hit the protein, soybean or cottonseed. I had one pretty nice deer that I ONLY saw on the cottonseed, and never saw him again after I quit it.

Even one year I put out some fruit and leftover halloween pumpkins - and drew different critters on that. BTW, it is really, really funny watch a deer tear into a pumpkin.

I've had great fun and enjoyment with some of these experiments.

Area and available natural foliage plays a huge role also