Yes sir, thats why a PST resides on top of my rifle. Even the salesman at SWFA said I'd be a fool if I didn't take advantage of the discount.

SWFA is the middle man for the SS scopes in my eyes. They are simply adding in the middle man cut into the price. They have even offered the 5-20 illuminated for 1000 dollars for a while, and yearly mark that scope down to around 1200. Granted, I'm not sure how much a normal middle man marks up his product. I guess its non of my business, really.

I'll put it this way. I think on the open market the ss 5-20 illuminated is about a 1000-1100ish bare bones basic scope, and the non illuminated about 950ish. It is right in the range of a bushnell edmr, which is another great scope. Features wise, the ss just doesn't hang with even the gen 1 razor. Zero stop, nope. Turret options, nope. MOA option, nope. Reticle options, nope. Decent controls, nope. Glass, evelation, and travel, sure.

While I have not performed a side by side comparison of my SS 5-20 HD to a Gen 1 Razor, I have used the SS hard for three years. It has done nothing but perform flawlessly. Anyone that comes through my class gets me spotting for them, calling wind correction prior to the shot, and spotting misses. I do this with the SS scope mounted to my rifle. While I may add another manufacturer's scope I will never sell the SS 5-20 HD. It has been completely reliable with very good glass. Heck, I see trace with it on a weekly basis.

Ok, I don't begrudge you your opinion of the scope; you're perfectly entitled to it and we'll just have to disagree on that. But, you're evidently not understanding the differences between the Vortex and SWFA marketing.

With the Vortex, you have the manufacturer in Japan (most likely Light Optical Works) who gets their cut, the designer and company brand who outsourced production (Vortex) who gets their cut, and the distributor (any of the optics resellers who carry Vortex) who gets their cut. Vortex doesn't sell direct. That is 3 levels, each of whom have to make a reasonable profit.

With the SS, you have the manufacturer in Japan (also most likely Light Optical Works) who gets their cut, and the designer/ company brand who outsourced it (SWFA). SWFA sells direct, only through them. That is 2 levels. Since I don't agree that the SS 5-20X50 illuminated is the equal of $1K scopes, we'll just have to disagree there.

On the other points: Correct, the SS doesn't have a zero stop. Definite advantage Vortex, as I noted. On turret options, you have a choice between MIL and MOA on the Vortex, but beyond that, what options? Whether or not that's an advantage depends on whether you like MOA better than MIL. I don't, so that isn't an "advantage" at all for me. On the knobs themselves, I agree that I like the form and feel of the Vortex knobs over the SS, as I noted. On the MOA option for the Vortex, again, that's only an advantage if you prefer MOA. I don't, and an increasing number of shooters don't in an optic designed for dialing in LR dope, so for those who prefer MIL, that's a non-issue. I happen to think the MIL system is simpler and faster, and with modern ballistic calculators, I don't think it really matters which system you use anyway. Same with reticle options. That depends on whether you like one of the Vortex reticles better than the SS Mil Quad. I don't, so it too is a non-issue. On "decent controls," that's both vague and debatable, a matter of opinion. Again, I do slightly prefer the controls on the Vortex, so I agree there, again as I noted. That being said, where the rubber meets the road, I've yet to hear anyone complain about the SS's tracking and repeatability, and that's what really matters in this type of optic, at least to me. However, if we compare the closest configured Razor Gen2, the 3-18X50, with the SS 5-20X50, that advantage in the feel of the knobs is for me offset by the fact the Razor weighs a little over 1 POUND more than the SS (46.5 oz vs. 31.4 oz), and I can't think of any rifle I own that I want to add an additional pound of weight to if I have other options. So, these things you mention in the Razor's favor aren't definite "advantages," they're a matter of opinion; advantages only if you prefer those features.

As with any other comparison, there are check marks that go in both the "pro" and "con" column for both scopes. I do believe most would agree the Vortex has better turrets, so that's a check in the "pro" column for it. I believe most will agree the Razor is heavy, and that could be a pro or a con, depending on your perspective. If the increased weight translates into better durability, then it's a plus, but I don't think that verdict has been reached. I believe most will agree the $700 difference in price is no small chunk of change. If the Vortex was $700 better scope, that would mitigate that difference, and that too is debatable. I truly believe the SS 5-20X50 competes well with scopes costing $500 more, which puts it in the Nightforce class, and I think it's a better scope than my Nightforce NXS 3-15X50 and my buddy's NF NXS 5.5-22X50. I believe optical performance between the SS and Vortex is a wash. I'll go ahead and give the Vortex the advantage in offering both MIL and MOA and additional reticles, even though those aren't advantages to me. So, all things considered, I believe saying the Vortex 3-18X50 is a $200 better scope than the SS 5-20 is about right, again from my perspective, ergo, I think the SS stacks up well against the Razor.

The OP was comparing a SS 5-20X to a Vortex Viper PST, and I simply said if you want to compare a SS to a Vortex, comparing the SS to the Razor HD was more equivalent than comparing the SS to the PST, which I believe to be true. If you disagree, you disagree, and that's fine, but I can't understand the urgency to dispute things that are entirely subjective.

^^Well stated^^

RifleDude, you are preaching to the choir on many of your points. I hate the size and weight of the gen2 razor. I don't even like the size and weight of my gen1 razor. I'm all for simple scopes. I'm a mil guy too, but the mil-quad reticle is not the end all be all of reticles. Having reticle options is never a bad thing. The turret options on the gen 1 razor to which I was referring is the fact that you have 5 and 10 mil options. Having owned both 5 and 10 mil Razors, I much prefer the 5 mil turrets.

My experience with SS is limited to the 3-9. I absolutely hated the magnification ring. Why in the world would you make it the same size as the diopter adjustment? That alone is a major design flaw. There is a reason they have switchviews available, and why the newer SS scopes offer up a bolt to help turn the mag ring. Also, there is a problem with how stiff the parallax knob is. This has led to a product offered by Aadmount. Gives more grip to the parallax knob.

Having said all that. I wish I would have jumped on board when SWFA offered these things up for 1000 bucks. They certainly are 200 dollars better than a made in the phillipines viper.

+1

Well then you cannot make an educated argument.

I'm sorry, did they update the mag ring on the 5-20? Or is it still the exact same size as the diopter adjustment?

Understand totally. You like different stuff than me.

Reticle options are never a bad thing, true. But what if one likes the one reticle offered on Scope A way better than the 3 reticles offered on Scope B? That's the case here for me. I prefer the Mil Quad myself. Someone else may not. Options in general are great, but those options I don't happen to select do nothing for me but increase the cost of the product, as all options do to all products, would you agree?

You only have a 10 mils/ revolution option on the Gen2, same as the SS. At any rate, I prefer the 10 mil revolution, because with the way my mind works it makes more sense for clicks and number of revs to both be in increments of 10.

While I kinda agree on the mag ring, I wouldn't make it any larger, as then it risks interfering with a bolt knob. Instead, I think a change in texture of the ring or reduced rotation tension might have solved the problem. Not a huge deal for me personally, and I'm not a Switchview fan. Just something else to hang up in the lining of my ATV's rifle scabbard.

I haven't found the parallax knob to be unreasonably stiff, and in fact I prefer it to have some resistance so it isn't inadvertently rotated as easily. At any rate the gripper you refer to is $30, an easy and relatively inexpensive fix if it bothers you.

Again, these are all pretty subjective things, though. But, I can understand and appreciate your reasoning.

It's the same size, but it has never given me any trouble. The diopter adjustment has a lock ring like a jam nut, and I use it. Therefore the magnification ring turns easily but the diopter does not. My parralax knob has always turned easily. I have heard of some of them being difficult to turn, but have no bad stories of my own to tell.

Turning the magnification up to 20X really illustrates how nice the glass is. Turning up a Viper PST to 24X shows how it needs to be backed off to gain clarity.

I can respect that. Btw, I hate switch views as well.