EXACTLY TO A TEE

How bout that Romo/Johnny football? Hope you know more about ranching than you do football!!!

You're dead wrong.

If the animal isn't captive it hasn't been cheapened. It's a great attempt to grasp at straws though. I applaud your effort. I assume next there will be an argument that it's the hunt that matters and the same method is used on both sides of the fence so it's all the same.

At this point it's like arguing with an irrational person because I give facts, you disregard and come up with some weird irrational justification. It's much like the obstacles conservatives have to overcome when trying to have a decent conversation with the other side of the spectrum. Captive is captive, is captive, is captive, that's not being narrow-minded, that's just fact. There is no disputing that fact. You can try, it wouldn't be considered having an open mind, it would be considered wrong. This is not a matter of opinion, this is a matter of fact, provable, defined fact.

And I have never actually said they're evil or totally bad, just that all the animals behind them have been cheapened. Market rates indicate this as well.

Actually it's more an opinion then a fact.....just pointing out that many things are in the eyes of the beholder. Fortunately we live in a place where folks can have different opinions and can decide on both where and how they want to hunt.

The opinion would be if someone would consider it an enjoyable experience. People enjoy different things so they could go back and forth on it without being wrong. Whether or not they're captive isn't something formed on opinion, it's fact.

I am take exception to the negative overtones and your reference to cheapened. Those are opinions.

That's fact too in regard to market rates of free ranging animals vs high fence and why they get labeled quickly as HF.

No argument there about the value of animals in the wild vs a HF (and some of those HF deer would never occur in the wild)...but your choice of words "cheapened" really isn't necessary. Nor was the comment about your wife being right...they can be taken as subtle insults. Maybe you did not mean it that way, but you can win an argument by taking the high ground and not falling into the trap of talking down to the person you are arguing with. That was my point.

I'm tired of sugar coating it, doesn't work against irrational arguments. Not intended to be a subtle insult, bluntly pointing out there's a right and a wrong when it comes to captivity and no reason to beat around the bush about it. Sad truth is it does cheapen the animals. People may not feel it cheapens their "hunting experience" and this is where debate can be had.

The truth is never an insult unless one is in denial about the truth.

Does not feeding an animal to gain control of it, be it LF or HF actually make that animal somewhat captive? Deer pens with feeders. Corn. protein or both eventually make that animal a captive to that pen. They will always at sometime be there. Is that not somewhat of a captive state? Is that not cheapening that animal even if it is done in a LF?

There is no such thing as "somewhat" captive, just like there is no such thing as "a little bit pregnant".

The hunt does matter. It's at the heart of it all. That's why shooting captive animals cheapens it so much.

It's not a hard concept. Most folks get it.

Now Don. That's a low blow right there. These people want to define value/quality for everyone else based on their own limited view of value/quality.

They literally believe themselves when they say "these are the facts/truth". What you and I and others value is irrelevant according to their value system.

Trying to show them where their value system has flaws is futile. Because it's THEIRS.

You and I can see it because we don't have the need to force our value system on others. The need to cheapen others experience is their MO, not ours.

It's always entertaining enough to watch the likes of rifleman and NP tie themselves in verbal knots though. To me there's a chit ton of value in that! Cheap and dependable as the sunrise.

So say you have a very large LF property. You buy some tame pen raised bottled genetically engineered WT Bucks turned loose in the middle of this property with a feed pen featuring feed they have been raised on. You shoot one at the feed trough and that is a hunt? And you are telling me that those deer are not in a way captive.

therancher you insult and try to cheapen mine and others hunts on here every chance you get. You are the biggest hypocrite on the THF.

I give you one... it is the hunt that matters. The instant you decide to pursue any animal the hunt begins. You first select the animal you want to hunt. You then research where and when. You talk with friends, guides, outfitters, lease managers, landowners and or references. You post questions on THF. The hunt is on.You very carefully select a place of adventure. Now we live in America. Not sure where your liberal party is taking us but for certain we will be cheapened. But for now you can select HF, LF, No fence. Once you made a personal decision you are set. You begin to sight in your weapon of choice. You head to the rifle range, bow range and practice...practice. You search over the new cabela’s catalog for some new or updated equipment. You start counting the days. You dream of that trophy you hope to harvest. You sharpen your knife, get your ice chest cleaned, etc. Maybe you are joining a friend on this adventure or your looking forward to making new friends along the path. The day has arrived. You pack your gear, load the truck, drive, fly what ever you chose but every emotion is set on high.

You meet your guide who soon becomes a good friend, you meet the landowner who welcomes you with open arms. You trade stories around the dinner table or camp fire that will last a lifetime. Life is perfect. The tension from your job and life has taken a well deserved vacation. God is good. You check the zero of you weapon, prepare your field pack and head out in pursuit of your trophy. The morning sun rises the birds begin to sing, the air is crisp and the yet somehow the sunrise is one of the most beautiful you have ever seen. You may walk, hike, float down a river, go up a mountain or sit in a blind. Spend a day a week or a month. 99% of everything you have done up until now is the hunt. You now await for the final 1%. The few second arrow release or trigger squeeze. Where, what, when, how, is Freedom. Freedom is not cheap.

Captive. We are all captive. I can’t escape my job, my wife, my son, my daughter, the car I drive, the vacation I can or cannot afford, mortgage ,the IRS, death, taxes..... or idiots. Animals are also captive. Why do see dead deer all along the highway shoulder if they are all free, do they not realize they can turn around. Why do numbers go down when a new development is built, they can just move. When habitat is destroyed why don’t they just relocate to another state. Animals only have the freedom we allow them to have. This is not a matter of opinion, this is a matter of fact, provable, defined fact.

Now when a landowner fences off 2000 acres and insures the game will prosper be well feed, reproduce, insures a lush habitat will be maintained. Provides cover and does not allow over grazing of plants. Introduces species that would otherwise be extinct I see that as a plus you see this as cheapen. This is not a matter of opinion, this is a matter of fact, provable, defined fact.

Who's right and who's wrong. Time will tell. For now I'll hunt when, how and where it's legal. The final decision has always been mine to make. God Bless America.

They may be tame, but they aren't captive.

Just another far-fetched scenario to try and make it seem the same. It isn't.

Perfect explanation.

My neighbor has cattle in captivity on the other side of our fence. They are livestock, same as the deer and exotics inside fences high enough to hold them.

Do you use a Feeder, a Stand or do you cover your self in Mud and fashion a Bow out of a Stick and a String and pursue your Animal for days working the wind

It's very simple. According to RM and NP, animals, and thus the experience, is cheapened by using methods they personally don't approve of. And they're convinced that they get to define the facts.

That means you aren't capable of defining your own values.

Elitism. We have benchmarks here.

You just twisted rifleman's words.

From here on out we will now hear the insults, the irrational analogies, the absurd statements ("We are all captive."), etc., etc.

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

I have never ever tried to cheapen anyone's hunt. Pointing out that we all take short cuts and use advantages is not denigrating your or anyone else's experience. And I only point those facts out to those who are denigrating others' chosen methods.

That was a weak attempt, but you really have been off your game lately.

Name calling is a perfect example.

No. Rifleman stated as a fact that all high fenced animals are cheapened. Cheapened means lowered in value. We just pointed out that he is not the master of OUR value and doesn't get to determine valu for others.