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#5627269 - 02/28/15 08:36 PM How come I can't shoot out these funky beams?
REALKILLER Offline
Tracker

Registered: 02/19/15
Posts: 912
Throughout the years, I have hunted areas in Texas that seemed to have a few deer with less desirable headgear that couldn't be culled out. Seems like whenever these bucks were culled out, somewhere down the line, another one would pop up. The bucks that I'm talking about are the 3yr old 6pts and bucks with a real weak side. No matter how hard we've tried to get these guys out of the herd, they just keep coming back. One season, I killed a 154" basic 6pt with 6 irregular tines coming off his beams. A friend of mine found a set of 6pt sheds from a buck that I was hunting that would easily gross 130. This 6pt genetic seems like it's pretty strong in the herd. On another lease, I have witnessed and killed some bucks that would have a real nice 5x side and the other side would have a G1 and G2 then a long slick beam. Several of this style deer have been killed on this place, and it's always on the same beam. If you have dealt with this, gimme a shout. bang
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#5627280 - 02/28/15 08:42 PM Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: REALKILLER]
stxranchman Offline
Obie Juan Kenobi

Registered: 08/04/10
Posts: 52092
Never really seen much of straight 6 pt(3x3) gene that stayed in the herd after deer numbers were reduced and nutrition increased to remaining deer. Not saying it can't be a dominate antler trait just never seen stay when numbers management was started. The other bucks that were lopsided in antler (4x2 or 5x2 or 5x3) were more injury related IME. They either correct themselves over time or stay that way the rest of their lives.
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#5627599 - 03/01/15 12:05 AM Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: stxranchman]
therancher Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 07/09/13
Posts: 5331
Loc: Mountain Home, Uvalde, and Big...
You cannot significantly impact genetics by culling. How do you know which does are carrying that gene??
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#5627690 - 03/01/15 06:54 AM Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: REALKILLER]
REALKILLER Offline
Tracker

Registered: 02/19/15
Posts: 912
That's true, those does don't have head gear to give us a clue. Kind of like that time I was putting big female bass in a pond. My friend said I needed to put some big Florida males too. The gene thang goes for both of them. I have killed a few injured bucks that had some irregular growth on one side, but those slick beamers I mentioned have all been killed within a quarter of a mile. That big six I was hunting got killed a few years later, and if a six point can go down hill, he had lost a lot of mass and tine length. He was sway backed and pot bellyed. That means he got a lot of breading in errrrrr. I didn't spend a lot of time hunting him, but I should have. I kept thinking he got shot, but that ol dog kept making brief appearances with the locals.
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Saw somethin big in grey out there. What is that? Oh #### !! thats a big ol buck. 😆

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#5627694 - 03/01/15 07:08 AM Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: therancher]
Western Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 04/20/11
Posts: 23574
Loc: Wise County Texas
Originally Posted By: therancher
You cannot significantly impact genetics by culling. How do you know which does are carrying that gene??


X's 2, that is the "catchall", I think most don't consider.
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#5627711 - 03/01/15 07:26 AM Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: Western]
therock Offline
Tracker

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 797
Loc: Southwest TX
X3 on the doe comments. Would think you would need to take out all of the older does and keep on taking any buck you see that has that trait as well. Not something you can correct In just a few years.

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#5627743 - 03/01/15 08:05 AM Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: REALKILLER]
stxranchman Offline
Obie Juan Kenobi

Registered: 08/04/10
Posts: 52092
This is from a Genetics Symposium at Texas A&M back in 1998. It has some interesting studies and papers that were reported on. Scroll down to the "THE ROLE OF GENETICS IN WHITE-TAILED DEER MANAGEMENT" by JEREMY F. TAYLOR on pages 99-103(PDF pages 105-109). It was a very interesting presentation that changed my thoughts on culling and management of deer from that day forward. This is key to why I changed my culling and management practices-" These four things are: 1) heritability, 2) the amount of variation you have in the population, 3) the intensity with which you select individuals, and 4) the generation interval, which is primarily determined by the culling rate. A very important thing to note at this point is that heritability is not the only factor that dictates the rate at which you can change a population by selection" were covered in this presentation.
This is the second to the last paragraph in the presentation- "The more genetic progress you are making, the better are the younger individuals in the population. Even though these individuals have small antlers because they are young, genetically they have the potential to have much larger antlers when they are 4.5 years of age, than do the 4.5 year old males that are currently in the population. Consequently, hunting the existing 4.5 year old bucks in the population is desirable in the sense that it allows the genetically superior and younger males to breed the females. This strategy will help maximize the intensity of selection in males and therefore increase response to selection."

http://texnat.tamu.edu/files/2010/09/TheRoleofGeneticsinWhitetailedDeerManagement2ndEdition.pdf
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#5627751 - 03/01/15 08:09 AM Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: REALKILLER]
Western Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 04/20/11
Posts: 23574
Loc: Wise County Texas
So STX, quit chut'n spikes grin
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#5627922 - 03/01/15 09:50 AM Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: stxranchman]
sig226fan (Rguns.com) Online   happy
duck & cover

Registered: 11/21/05
Posts: 30554
Loc: Hickory Creek, Fannin Co. Texa...
Originally Posted By: stxranchman
This is from a Genetics Symposium at Texas A&M back in 1998. It has some interesting studies and papers that were reported on. Scroll down to the "THE ROLE OF GENETICS IN WHITE-TAILED DEER MANAGEMENT" by JEREMY F. TAYLOR on pages 99-103(PDF pages 105-109). It was a very interesting presentation that changed my thoughts on culling and management of deer from that day forward. This is key to why I changed my culling and management practices-" These four things are: 1) heritability, 2) the amount of variation you have in the population, 3) the intensity with which you select individuals, and 4) the generation interval, which is primarily determined by the culling rate. A very important thing to note at this point is that heritability is not the only factor that dictates the rate at which you can change a population by selection" were covered in this presentation.
This is the second to the last paragraph in the presentation- "The more genetic progress you are making, the better are the younger individuals in the population. Even though these individuals have small antlers because they are young, genetically they have the potential to have much larger antlers when they are 4.5 years of age, than do the 4.5 year old males that are currently in the population. Consequently, hunting the existing 4.5 year old bucks in the population is desirable in the sense that it allows the genetically superior and younger males to breed the females. This strategy will help maximize the intensity of selection in males and therefore increase response to selection."

http://texnat.tamu.edu/files/2010/09/TheRoleofGeneticsinWhitetailedDeerManagement2ndEdition.pdf



And that exactly refutes the AR plan the state uses. It protects the bad genes, the 6 points (which biologists say is dominant), and the unknown. It allows you to only kill the good ones.
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#5628441 - 03/01/15 02:14 PM Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: REALKILLER]
REALKILLER Offline
Tracker

Registered: 02/19/15
Posts: 912
That's all a little confusing, but I do see a point. I'm the only person I know that passes up a 4.5 year old bucks in east Texas, but not always. If I'm in a situation where I think he will make it and he is not exactly what I'm looking for I will pass him if he looks like he is good for the herd or I feel like I can kill a bigger one. Sometimes I will pass up a 4.5 year old buck with potential to hunt an old cull buck that needs to be taken out. And it seems like when I pass them up 75% percent of the time they come up missing or somebody else kills them. On rare occasions I'm lucky enough to see the buck in the next season or two. I don't enjoy killing anything under the 4.5 age. That's normally when I take the kid, wife, or a friend that's just really happy to get a hunt in. And yes I do take a friend now and then to a big buck hole, but they rarely pull it of. Hey, what kind I say it takes time. Speaking of the dominate 6 point. I have a friend that shot an old bruiser 6 point. He went to the truck to get a good tracking light and when he found his buck laying on the ground there was a 150 inch ten point pronging the hell out of it, even though it was dead on the ground. Now you no that 6 point had to of been bullying every buck in the area for this to happen. It was the 10 points chance for some form of payback. He said there was dirt pushed all around the 6 where he had been moved by the 10. This culling can be tricky.
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Saw somethin big in grey out there. What is that? Oh #### !! thats a big ol buck. 😆

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#5628473 - 03/01/15 02:32 PM Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: stxranchman]
rifleman Offline
Sparkly Pants

Registered: 11/19/08
Posts: 43776
Loc: Kingwood
Originally Posted By: stxranchman
Never really seen much of straight 6 pt(3x3) gene that stayed in the herd after deer numbers were reduced and nutrition increased to remaining deer. Not saying it can't be a dominate antler trait just never seen stay when numbers management was started. The other bucks that were lopsided in antler (4x2 or 5x2 or 5x3) were more injury related IME. They either correct themselves over time or stay that way the rest of their lives.


Been my experience on the mainframes as well.

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#5628589 - 03/01/15 03:26 PM Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: rifleman]
therancher Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 07/09/13
Posts: 5331
Loc: Mountain Home, Uvalde, and Big...
My response was based on the fact that the OP is a low fence only hunter. I don't think there have been any low fence ranches that have proven to be "manageable" in terms of culling to significantly influence antler charactoristics.

In fact most large high fenced ranches using only culling to improve genetics are gonna take more than a human lifetime to acheive significant results.

Age and nutrition are his best bets for improvement.


Edited by therancher (03/01/15 03:27 PM)
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#5628644 - 03/01/15 03:54 PM Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: REALKILLER]
rifleman Offline
Sparkly Pants

Registered: 11/19/08
Posts: 43776
Loc: Kingwood
I have one that's lost points with age and nutrition while everything else has gotten bigger. (I mean not hard to go from 8 as a young'un to 6pt the last 2 years with great growing seasons)


...and fully understand it's not the norm.


Edited by rifleman (03/01/15 03:55 PM)

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#5628695 - 03/01/15 04:21 PM Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: REALKILLER]
REALKILLER Offline
Tracker

Registered: 02/19/15
Posts: 912
It's a low fence topic. That's all I've ever hunted. I can believe that It could be impossible to clear out the funky beamed bucks for good. There's no telling how long the herd has been there in the first place. Might be unbeatable.
_________________________
Saw somethin big in grey out there. What is that? Oh #### !! thats a big ol buck. 😆

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#5628771 - 03/01/15 04:57 PM Re: How come I can't shoot out these funky beams? [Re: rifleman]
therancher Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 07/09/13
Posts: 5331
Loc: Mountain Home, Uvalde, and Big...
No doubt there are exceptions to all rules. I have a buck that at 3 (I think because they are all native in Uvalde) was a perfect 4 on one side, but had an extra main beam tine (7") coming out of the inside beam and on the same side had a 4" dagger pointing down over his eye.

I know it's the same deer because he has perfect matching round white spots on his neck. He's now 7 yo and has never been more than an average symmetrical 8.
_________________________
"I cant wait to see if he plays this week, and if he does if he can actually break 50 percent completion ratio. Haha or maybe even throw for 200 yards. Possibly break a QB rating of 75." - Texas Tatonka
www.bigironranchadventures.com

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