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Max Online: 16728 @ 03/25/12 08:51 AM
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#5625338 - 02/27/15 10:16 PM pedigree question
Moe #2 Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 390
Loc: dallas
Is there a good reason why a kennel and breeder wouldn't be willing to send me a picture of the parents pedigree of a puppy I'm wanting to buy from them. I would have thought that would be something the kennel would brag on. Or could it show something bad? Could someone use that paper to there advantage and then not pay for the puppy? This is the main reason I posted a question about if someone knew the breeder.

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#5625427 - 02/27/15 11:03 PM Re: pedigree question [Re: Moe #2]
Fooshman Online   content
THF Celebrity

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 13679
Loc: Black Dog, Texas
Sounds odd.
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#5625482 - 02/27/15 11:34 PM Re: pedigree question [Re: Moe #2]
Sniper John Online   happy

gumshoe

Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 16313
Loc: North Texas
What I found in 5 minutes after searching for that kennel/breeder name. "2-3 new litters per month" and puppies for sale on craigslist, ebay, and others on adopt a pet type sites. At least one new ad uses the same picture of a puppy from an old ad. None give any info on pedigree or parents. The ebay ad I saw listed age as "baby". Most ads are $600, one had $400, but they had one for $300 that was said to be the only surviving puppy from a litter so they were not registering it with AKC. That makes no sense, so I would wonder what is really up with that one. If your buying one for $300, it is likely that puppy and why they will not give you the pedigree. Then there was another for 6 wk old Black Labrador puppies without papers for $200 each and the one pictured is older than that. All they ever advertise is that the parents can be seen on site. This smells of puppy mill IMHO. If your buying without knowing the pedigree and no health clearances on the line, you could be taking a risk considering how the risk of things like PRA and Hip Displasia can be greatly reduced if you do have health clearances. Especially important for you since you mentioned in a prior post your concerns about your last Lab not being as long lived as other labs you have known. Genetics are as important as nutrition, if not more.
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#5625631 - 02/28/15 07:25 AM Re: pedigree question [Re: Moe #2]
TXPride Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1876
Loc: Lost
No good reason. I'd stay away. Make sure you can view pedigrees and health clearances on parents. Buy a dog with those as a minimum and it may save in the long run.

If clearances aren't important, consider adopting a rescue dog.


Edited by TXPride (02/28/15 08:00 AM)
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#5625640 - 02/28/15 07:30 AM Re: pedigree question [Re: Moe #2]
tthame1 Offline


Registered: 05/07/09
Posts: 322
Loc: Plano, TX
You should be able to get a full detailed pedigree that lists all titles for the dogs listed in the pedigree. I wouldn't even consider buying a puppy if I wasn't able to get a 3 generation pedigree at minimum along with health clearances for both parents. You may get a dog cheaper without those things, but you'll likely wish that you paid more for one from a reputable breeder in the long run.

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#5625764 - 02/28/15 08:47 AM Re: pedigree question [Re: Moe #2]
Moe #2 Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 390
Loc: dallas
If they can show the parents pedigree with the normal 3 generations and have paperwork registering the litter does that mean or at leastbe a good sign that its legit?

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#5625934 - 02/28/15 10:08 AM Re: pedigree question [Re: Moe #2]
TXPride Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1876
Loc: Lost
It's not hard to register a litter and show parents pedigree. What do you mean by "legit" though? Doesn't make them a responsible breeder who is trying to improve the breed and care for the dogs they are dealing with.

Ask for health clearances on the dogs, OFA records, EIC and CNM results, etc. then look up the records and verify yourself.

For your reading pleasure on why, and what to ask about:

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/clearances.html
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#5626055 - 02/28/15 11:06 AM Re: pedigree question [Re: Moe #2]
Sniper John Online   happy

gumshoe

Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 16313
Loc: North Texas
With what Moe has told us, there is no telling what he is going to get, like a box of chocolates. Not only the health clearances, but there is no telling what kind of lab he is going to get if they will not share the pedigree up front.

Moe, realize Labs are one of those breeds that have very different breed types within the breed. Watching Labs at both hunt tests and then at conformation dog shows, they truly look at act like two completely different breeds to me even though they fall under the same breed standard.
https://rosewoodretrievers.wordpress.com/articles/american-labradors-vs-english-labradors/

I do realize one can't expect much when the pricing is only in the $200 to $600 range, but with only the little information they give up front online and nothing else, I personally would not buy a dog from them until I was provided much more information about what I was getting so I would at least know it was what I was looking for.
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#5626309 - 02/28/15 01:00 PM Re: pedigree question [Re: Moe #2]
Moe #2 Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 390
Loc: dallas
Thanks guys. I'm going to ask for paperwork for for the testing. If they don't show it I won't buy. That reading Txpride gave make me want to test my chocolate lab. I bought him from a guy on here. He had no test on parents bit had references from several guys from 4 previous years on the forum. Yellow lab. That passed was another back yard pup mother had test but 12 yr old dad hadn't but was healthy and running around strong. She was from ebonstar lean mack line. This is the 1st breeder I've realy looked at.

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#5626375 - 02/28/15 01:37 PM Re: pedigree question [Re: Moe #2]
huck18 Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 03/04/10
Posts: 1724
Loc: Ft. Worth, Texas
You should be able to see the pedigree on both sides and all health clearances if there are any. Usually price is a good indication of the quality of the breeding. I think you should be willing to spend at least $800-$1,000 to find a quality breeding, you may find a deal and get one for $600 but that's pretty rare.

Do your research and buy a pup that has OFA hip and elbow clearances of "Good" or better. They also should be cleared for EIC and have CERF Eye Clearances.

The pup may cost more up front but will save you money in the long run. You will be spending the next 10-15 years with this dog, your better off spending a little more and getting a quality dog.

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#5626536 - 02/28/15 03:01 PM Re: pedigree question [Re: Moe #2]
kbobbjr Offline
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 2610
Loc: Josephine, Tx
A few clarifications/additions to the posts above. At the very least a breeder should be able to provide a 3 generation pedigree. It may or may not show all titles achieved by the parents (AKC/UKC). AKC pedigrees won't show UKC titles and vice versa. Also, if the pedigree was produced prior to the dog achieving any field titles then it won't show it. You can still verify this through a number of sources such as the AKC website, calling UKC or www.findretrievers.com. The breeder should provide clearances for hips, eyes, CNM and EIC (these can generally be found on www.offa.org). Keep in mind not all breeders check the elbows, thyroid or heart. Just because they don't doesn't mean they're trying to hide something. As far as EIC/CNM goes, if the parents are clear then the pups will be clear. The parents usually won't be tested if the grandparents are "clear" (clear by parentage). If this is stated then you can verify it. Just because a pup is an EIC/CNM carrier there shouldn't be any reason to shy away from it. A carrier will never be affected. Keep in mind that if you're looking for a cheap pup chances are you won't find one with all the necessary clearances or titles. If you have any questions you are welcome to call me and I'll help you out.
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#5633705 - 03/04/15 09:40 AM Re: pedigree question [Re: Moe #2]
kindall Offline


Registered: 08/01/09
Posts: 3769
Loc: Spring, Tx
IMO Sounds like a puppy mill, or close to it. From the information on Johns first post, I wouldn't spend money on one of their pups.
You stand a better chance of finding the dog you want, if you let one of the trainers that campaigns dogs help you. There is a couple of them on the forum.
They not only know the bloodlines, they personally know the dogs.
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#5633711 - 03/04/15 09:44 AM Re: pedigree question [Re: kindall]
huck18 Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 03/04/10
Posts: 1724
Loc: Ft. Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: kindall
IMO Sounds like a puppy mill, or close to it. From the information on Johns first post, I wouldn't spend money on one of their pups.
You stand a better chance of finding the dog you want, if you let one of the trainers that campaigns dogs help you. There is a couple of them on the forum.
They not only know the bloodlines, they personally know the dogs.


This ^^^^. Talk with kbobbjr he will steer you in the right direction.

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#5640189 - 03/07/15 06:30 PM Re: pedigree question [Re: Moe #2]
Troubador Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 05/22/12
Posts: 489
i would never buy a pup from a breeder advertising on ebay or that has 3 plus litters a month.

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#5640351 - 03/07/15 08:17 PM Re: pedigree question [Re: Moe #2]
Fooshman Online   content
THF Celebrity

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 13679
Loc: Black Dog, Texas
I've never bought a pup from any advertisement.
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