Why not push what you believe in?

Been very happy with swfa and speed of service..still waiting on parts that broke on a leupold mark 4 rings (4 weeks and 3 days ) still nothing in the mail

Wow, so the Ford dealer pushed the Ford brand? HLS, will wonders never cease.

With the wealth of information available at your fingertips today, if you are taking one persons word for ANYTHING these days you get what you deserve.

I had a guy on here offer me an item; I asked about model specifics, and he lied to me. Basically tried to sell me a bar of silver while claiming it was gold. When I got the pic I knew the difference. Even better, he wanted more for it used than I could get a new one for.

Caveat emptor.

Word.

I don't listen to anyone much who is "in the business"-even though I know some are probably super knowledgeable. Simply put, too many either have agendas, are ignorant, or both.

I am a hunter. Leupold scopes have never let me down in over 40 years. I'm too old to give another brand the "40 year" test. Plus, I have no need to. So, I don't.

It seems all you're trying to do is

Worthless post...

Basically the same post we had a week ago that did the same thing.

I might have seen a couple of you around a few gunshops, maybe even subjects of my first post. Apparently there are a few of you that understand where I'm coming from. Lets take the guy happy with his choice and doesn't want to spend "forty years" proving the worth of another. Theres the guy who might be suspect of a scope when folks talk about all the great warranty...Bravo to both.

There are a few others that are the "Almighty" in determining what has value on the forum and probably in the "scope" arena too. Please feel free to navigate the thread, or away from the thread. I'm not looking to stir the pot, debate or fight with y'all.

I do hope through reading this thread, persons with personalities resembling the folks in my post, will think twice before giving unsolicited advice on someone else's selection of scope, in person of course.

One scope brand does spend a ton on marketing to try to wedge into the market basically from out of nowhere.....

There's also some civilians that put optics to some of the most long term rigorus tests imaginable. Not the scope that gets pulled out of the safe in October, zero checked, carried hunting and one to four shots made in three months, then the rifle and scope go back into the safe for another nine months. And I'm not bashing on that or saying there's anything wrong with it.

Compare that tempo to the rifle scoe that gets used and shot through many days a week, every week, for years. The guys that use the scopes that hard, and that often compare notes. If one is a POS, the info will be shared. I got no dog in the hunt, and get no kickbacks on optics, just share personal experience with what I've used. And there are plenty of people around here that do the same thing, for the same reason, to help others.

I understand your criticism. For what it's worth, keep in mind that shops get to see and hear what people complain about and try to bring back. That's not the best substitute for actual use, though. Consider that 90% of people that walk into a shop to slap glass on a gun are never going to use an optic to its full capacity to make a difference anyways.

You can not not deny the impact of internet forums on product selection in this day and time.

One person's opinion can be shared on an internet forum, and other folks will reshare/repeat/copy that information as fact. That leads to folks googling a certain product finding multiple source, and assuming that is the general consensus among users of a certain product when, in fact, it was simply what I call "forum dogma" being repeated by folks who want to look intelligent on forums by repeating what one well respected person said. I have seen this on guitar forums and gun forums. The guitar forum was really bad about this. There were a couple folks with high post counts that would express their opinions ( A LOT) and newbies would often repeat that info to gain standing in the forum community, and before you know it, you could watch the evolution of opinions and even track where the original thought had come from.


A few years ago, I was in a big hunting store looking for a scope. I had no particular brand in mind, but I have always been partial to Leupold because I have never had a bad experience with one. Went to the store to look at scopes, and asked to the see the Leupold first. The clerk kept pushing Vortex on me, and I asked if I could see both scopes to compare them side by side. Took both scopes outside in low light, and the Leupold clearly beat the Vortex, but the clerk kept telling me how much better the vortex was, and at a cheaper price. If he wouldn't have been such a jerk, I would have bought the Leupold from that store, but instead, I went home and ordered it from Midway.

I have had similar experiences. And yes, marketing hype becomes "forum dogma" very quickly. The internet can be wonderful, or wonderfully misleading. Takes a fair amount of discernment to know the difference. I have a couple of basic rules:

1)Warranty/service means nothing to me. A great warranty means nothing if a piece of equipment fails in the field. (All the good companies have great warranties/CS anyway.)

2)If I read about failures with any product pretty consistently, I will not ever buy it. I don't care what others say about it.

so tittle on this thread is why do people push certain scopes

1. Manufacture incentives - cash is always a great motivator
2. Personal preference -people are different so scope choice will be different
3. Customer stated needs - if you are going to do this - then this will do that
4. Brand Loyalty - own it, can not pronounce but will never change - leupold
5. Availability - cant say I have been in shop that had everything

So if you are trying to find a way to choose a scope - 1st thing get out there in person and try them out

I think peoples' emotions play a big part in what they'll defend and recommend. It's not easy to be 100% objective in a given instant, and it's impossible to be objective all the time. Some folks don't want to believe that you [usually] get more when you spend more. Some folks don't want to believe that what they've accepted as perfectly useable is actually second rate at best, or maybe not even that good. Some folks buy what they think is best as a status symbol and look down their noses at anything costing less and anyone who buys it. Some have to have the very finest equipment but don't or can't even use it.

It's all about people, and people are funny critters. I'm weird...and so are the rest of you!

If you're talking about the hangers-on at the gunshop that have no job, sorry dude - those guys have way too many issues for an internet post to fix.

Many scope brands offer incentives to retail employees in an attempt to give them incentive to sell their product. Leupold, Zeiss, and Vortex all do this by offering heavy discounts if you work at a shop that sells their product. Swarovski has an even more aggressive incentive plan than that.

I will tell you that as someone who is a former manager over optics at a major retailer that the "proven" brands push their product on retail employees just as hard as anyone else. The Leupold rep was in our store more than any other brand, and was the rep that I found to be by far the least knowledgeable of any optics rep I met with.

I have Leupold, Vortex, and Swarovski optics at home. My point is, all of these brands, even the "proven" brands, push their product and offer incentives for retailers to sell them.

This whole thread seems to have started because the OP has a brand preference for one of the "proven" brands, and decided that he should talk down about the "new" brand. The irony here is that he is doing something very similar to what he is complaining about. Putting down a brand and pushing people towards another when nobody asked for his opinion, just like the retail employee he apparently dealt with.

The only difference is that he is a fan of the "proven" brands and that fool behind the counter was a fan of those new-fangled whatchamacallits made in Asia that can't possible stand up to "proven" brands!

Nobody's trying to get you into a brand debate. We're trying to understand wtf the point of your post was?

Why do shops try to sell things? You couldn't possibly be dumb enough to ask that question...unless you are.

That's true. It's hard to separate fact from fiction. I can't do it.

Outdoor Life did a study once comparing the "Big Three's" (Swaro, Zeiss, Leica) scopes vs. other brands a few years back. Their guys concluded that, on average, one gained 10 minutes of shooting time at dawn and dusk (20 minutes total) with the "Big Three" vs. other brands tested. That was eye-opening to me. That's the kind of stuff that is interesting to me.

Leupold (what I use) was better than most according to them-but not as good as the "Big Three". Given the cost, that made sense.

IDK if that is still true today, but it makes sense it would be.

With all due respect, I rekon you'd be mistakin. I really don't know a better word than "proven" given the long history of some brands. I'm not recommending nor naming any brand, but I personally trust a long standing scope brand. The noted behavior is something I've experienced a few times, and witnessed too many times. When a man walks into a shop and ask confidently to see "brand" scope, he doesn't present a disquietude that would warrant any "advice".

I didn't put a question mark on the topic either, I told you I know the prices and the markup. Its also true that Hornady ammunition tends to have a fair retail price compared to the competition, but has one of the lowest wholesale prices, which lends itself to the most profit potential. I don't know if Hornady ammo is the best or not.

I know'd a young fella (not me) some forty years ago that was proud as he could be with a brand-x 4x on his single shot rifle, after picking peas and returning soda bottles for deposit over two years. That rifle fed his family for years until he became a very rich man. He still has that rifle. I'm just saying that unless a fella has walked a mile in another man's shoes and is specifically asked for his opinion on such matters, it would be better to keep one's mouth shut instead of making a man feel bad.

Creekrunner, I believe you.

I work the gun counter at Cabela's. The people working the counter with the least experience with optics always push Vortex. "Vortex makes the best scope, has the best warranty and the best customer service in the industry." It's pretty funny to me and sad because our Vortex scopes sit in the same display case as our Zeiss, Swarovski, and NightForce. Vortex does have outstanding Customer Service and a great Warranty.

Vortex is a great example of the power of marketing. I have two of the original Vipers(before they were split in to the P and H series. They are good scopes. The eye relief on them is noticeably shorter than my VX2, VX3, VXR, Conquest and Meopro's, their low light performance is much worse than the above mentioned scopes and is also worse than my Fullfield II's and my Elite 4200. YMMV, this is how they look through my eyes.

In my opinion the best $200.00 3-9x40 scope is the Burris Fullfield II. I sell a ton of them by having customer's compare clarity with Pro-Staffs and Diamondbacks. If this is their first optic purchase and they have not been told what to buy from someone, then they will buy what looks best to them.

If all their buddy's have told them to buy Vortex or Nikon they normally ignore what their eyes tell them and buy what they have been told.
There is more false information passed off as fact about scopes than there is about firearms in my opinion. You here some crazy stuff. The other day a guy came in to purchase a rifle but didn't want one with a free floated barrel. When asked why he said rifles with free floated barrels kick a lot more than ones with bedded barrels. He informed me that his .338 WinMag was free floated and kicked like a mule and refused to consider that maybe it was the cartridge he was shooting that caused so much recoil.

A lot of misconception in glass comparison happens when people look through them inside of a store instead of outdoors. Another is that some brands have several levels of quality and one level may or may not compare yet people just give the brand and not the particular model.

Proven is a relative term. Is it 10 years, 20 years, 30 years..etc.
Every mfg has a price point option. No scope MFG dominates every price point option. Those price points can be broken down also via technical features.

Your wants and needs in a scope most likely differ then mine and in each price point.
As far as a retailer pushing a scope, it's most likely a brand that fit the specifications and price point you set forth, even then it's their opinion. They have a right to opinion just as you do.

MFG's set prices and many are very strict on their MAP pricing. Those prices usually follow suit profitability wise as all the other brands. If a scope MFG feels their product is two high for that price point or moving to slow, you get to see rebates.

Guess I just don't get the post, if a retailer suggests a scope it's because you asked thier opinion.

Bobo, your last sentence is my point. Nobody solicited advice or criticism. In every case, the buyer knew exactly what scope he/she wanted to look at or purchase.

Yes, "proven" is subjective or "relative"

Your problem is when a guy walks in and says I want to see that "insert name of proven scope" and the guy behind the counter says "naw man, you want to see this "insert name of new brand scope" correct?

Absolutely. Not just the guy behind the counter though, every yahoo in the joint with a certain personality trait.

I've seen woman folk go in to buy specific scopes for their significant others and get accosted. Imagine if your wife asked you what kinda scope you wanted for Christmas, and they returned with the "high profit potential".

They really should do a reality show on some of these gun groupies.

Ok now im on board with you. It just took 2 pages to get clear. I can agree with that. I was in academy a few months ago and another customer kept telling every other customers all the guns they were looking at were junk and the only pistols in the case worth owning were berettas.

But... I appreciate getting different guys opinions when I'm shopping for stuff. If I'm "shopping" it's because I havnt made up my mind yet.