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Tight grouping without sled or bench?
#5616728
02/24/15 03:16 AM
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 166
22hemi13
OP
Woodsman
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OP
Woodsman
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 166 |
Ok I see all these pics of nice tight close groups. Is everybody shooting from a bench? I don't use a bench or sand bags. I will sit at a picnic table with a backpack that has misc hunting stuff in it. Get as comfy as I can and shoot away. So I guess I wonder is what should the grouping look like if it is more so the shooter vs a sled or bench? And I really need to get a sled cause those close groups look fun. I usually shoot 100yds cause that's all I really about all I can get on my place when I hunt
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Re: Tight grouping without sled or bench?
[Re: 22hemi13]
#5616744
02/24/15 03:28 AM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,219
dee
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,219 |
Bench or prone with a bipod and rear bag.
"A vote is like a rifle; it's usefulness depends on the character of the user" Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Tight grouping without sled or bench?
[Re: 22hemi13]
#5616762
02/24/15 03:35 AM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,308
Precision_Shooter
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
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Bench with bipod and rear bag as well. Have never used a sled or anything like that.
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Re: Tight grouping without sled or bench?
[Re: 22hemi13]
#5616781
02/24/15 03:44 AM
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 166
22hemi13
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Woodsman
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OP
Woodsman
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 166 |
Maybe I should try a rear bag. Them tight groups sure look nice. I'm not missing by any means it's just not tight.
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Re: Tight grouping without sled or bench?
[Re: 22hemi13]
#5616825
02/24/15 04:11 AM
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,732
HorizonFirearms
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
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I don't like the sleds, I use front bull bag and rear sandbag. From bench or from shooting pad
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Re: Tight grouping without sled or bench?
[Re: 22hemi13]
#5616834
02/24/15 04:18 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,083
J.G.
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Prone, bipod, rear bag provides the most stable position for me.
There is technique to it though. Make sure eye relief is correct, edge to edge clarity, level reticle, parralax error removed, slow steady pressure on the trigger, final pressure on the natural respiratory pause. In hot weather it is harder to do, since respiratory rate and heart rate are increased.
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: Tight grouping without sled or bench?
[Re: 22hemi13]
#5616852
02/24/15 04:29 AM
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 166
22hemi13
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Woodsman
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OP
Woodsman
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 166 |
I control my breathing very well and trigger squeeze is good. Scope is good to go and I'm relaxed. Think I just need to try out some bags and rests. Maybe a bipod and prone. I'm shooting an old Stevens 110E 30-06 grouping is just over 1" 3 round groups @100yds. I shoot my wife's ruger .270 and I get 1"@100yds. Just not on top of eachother I want the same dang hole
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Re: Tight grouping without sled or bench?
[Re: 22hemi13]
#5616859
02/24/15 04:34 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,083
J.G.
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Seems like you're doing a bunch of things right. How heavy is the trigger? Are you shooting hand loads tuned to the the rifle?
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: Tight grouping without sled or bench?
[Re: 22hemi13]
#5616867
02/24/15 04:39 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,083
J.G.
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Same hole leads into cut rifled barrel, smith dual indicating while centering in the lathe and centering within .0005". Brass once fired and FL sized .002-3" to the chamber, powder loaded to .1 gr accuracy or better, bullet seated most appropriately to that barrel, then doing everything right behind the rifle.
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: Tight grouping without sled or bench?
[Re: 22hemi13]
#5616881
02/24/15 04:49 AM
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 166
22hemi13
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Woodsman
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OP
Woodsman
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 166 |
Shooting factory ammo. Was using Remington from core lockt. Eh.... Got Winchester 180g that's better. Next I'll try hornady. I think before I go getting any more picky I need to update my rifle lol. The trigger pull is factory it's non adjustable. Guessing 3.5lbs maybe a lil more. Wife's ruger is 3lbs pull
Last edited by 22hemi13; 02/24/15 04:49 AM.
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Re: Tight grouping without sled or bench?
[Re: 22hemi13]
#5616916
02/24/15 05:40 AM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 21,370
Bullfrog
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Be happy with the 1" groups sir with what you're doing currently. They're doing what they were intended for. I had to realize this a while back too
Man if I knew what Oxner knows I could throw away what I know
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Re: Tight grouping without sled or bench?
[Re: 22hemi13]
#5616917
02/24/15 05:41 AM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 21,370
Bullfrog
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Factory loads will absolutely make you crazy. Just when you find that one box with the right lot numbers that shoot well, you done shot em up and you buy another box of something from some other time they made them and they won't shoot for nuthin.
Man if I knew what Oxner knows I could throw away what I know
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Re: Tight grouping without sled or bench?
[Re: 22hemi13]
#5616936
02/24/15 07:07 AM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,442
kmon11
junior
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junior
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,442 |
Lot of truth in what the frog said (did I just say that)
Sounds like you are doing a lot right, a more stable rest could very easily improve the groups some. Factory ammo has gotten better but it will not compete with ammo loaded to match your gun most of the time. I say most of the time because occasionally you find a load that shoots great from your gun, If you do buy all of that lot number you can.
Shooting the small one hole groups is fun, I use a benchrest style front rest or bags and a rear bag when shooting from the bench. Sometimes bipod if the forearm is stiff enough so not to flex and cause issues. Backpack from prone works as well. I rarely shoot those little groups from field positions but they are fun when you do. Shooting those tiny groups from a bench is fun but doesn't tell you what can be done from field positions.
Like a rifle and load that is accurate from the bench, then if I miss from a field position I know where to place the blame. On Me. I shoot mostly from the bench when working up loads or checking the scope. On occasion though I admit those one hole groups are fun, it is also too easy to have a group like that going and call a flyer that isn't an inch off but know it was me that messed up.
Biggest thing is have fun shooting. Thomas Jefferson was right. The gun should be your constant companion on your daily walk for it exercises the body and mind.
lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true Mainstream news might be fun to watch
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Re: Tight grouping without sled or bench?
[Re: 22hemi13]
#5617082
02/24/15 01:47 PM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 22,688
BigPig
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I always use a backpack filled with rolled up towels for a front rest because it's light weight and can be beat into the shape I need. For a rear bag I bought a $3 bag of fish tank rocks, taped the plastic down right and places in a tube sock and tied it off. It worked for me until I could find something better, which hasn't happened yet. I will be trying airsoft BB's instead of rocks because of the weight
Wade Dews, REALTOR ® Rendon Realty, LLC Frontline Real Estate Team www.RendonRealty.comWadeDews@gmail.com 214-356-2410 Up to 1% for closing costs for First Responders & Veterans Proudly partnered with Assist The Officer Foundation https://atodallas.org/
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Re: Tight grouping without sled or bench?
[Re: 22hemi13]
#5617153
02/24/15 02:22 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,407
WileyCoyote
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,407 |
Necessity is the Mother of Invention was never more true a statement than doing more with less... like trying to shoot bugholes with equipment that was not designed for that goal, with shooters skills that have never been trained and practiced for that dedicated goal. Aim Small Miss Small ...IF you know how First is the initial step.
Reliable Repeat Accuracy is an art form that is learned over many hours and experimentation for what detailed minutia in any of the basic requirements suit you best, but only after you understand the principles and base level equipment requirements.
FWIW those learned skills also degrade without steady long term usage...but just like riding a bicycle can be regained more quickly after a layoff once the intial level of skill has been ingrained with no thought required. Trigger discipline, breathing discipline, getting past all the changes to your physical health after a several year layoff really can be done. BTDT that several times...but patience & dedication to the effort once you have The Knowledge to draw from is the key...and is where I am right now waiting to get back in the game, due to outside issues taking all my time, energy & $$'s.
Backyard practice with empty but primed brass was one of my "tricks" to practice shooting form, breathing and trigger disciplines behind a 6' tall privacy fence, and not have the Carrollton Cops all over my arse once upon a time. No 2 story houses overlooking me either....only had to be careful about when the lady couple houses down decided to work on her "all over" tan 'cause DPD & CPD's 'choppers always swarmed the 'hood when she was out by the pool. Up here a neighbor wages war on tree rats with a Gamo pellet rifle out to 50-75+ yards...and only "scores" head shots, not really expecting to add to his collection of tails....but that's OK by him too if it happens.
Repeatable At Will long strings of No Miss 3 point BBall nuthin but net shots from mid court is a good comparison... Ron
Last edited by WileyCoyote; 02/24/15 02:36 PM.
It is TIME for Term Limits, cause Politicians are like childrens diapers and for the same reasons...Robin Williams "These are the times that try men's soul's"...Thomas Paine
"Those who fail to learn from History are doomed to repeat it" ....Santayana
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Re: Tight grouping without sled or bench?
[Re: 22hemi13]
#5617188
02/24/15 02:37 PM
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,972
HuntTXhogs
Veteran Tracker
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I use the bench and sandbags at least once on every rifle I own to establish it's accuracy capability and develop the most accurate load. From there I then decide what power of scope or type of scope (day optic / night optic) would be best suited given the grouping result. Any other given day from a picnic table or home depot bucket and fold out chair I know I can do my part to make a sub MOA gun a 2 - 3 MOA gun
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Re: Tight grouping without sled or bench?
[Re: 22hemi13]
#5617200
02/24/15 02:41 PM
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 166
22hemi13
OP
Woodsman
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OP
Woodsman
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 166 |
Guess I'm not far off them. I'll look to change things up in the future. I know I kill whatever I hit. 4-4 this year. We shoot A LOT. I put my daughter 10yrs and son 8yrs on the 10-22 for first time. My daughters grouping That's 50yds with a $7 tasco. Not bad for first shots with a rifle. She'll be the sharpshooter like her mom
Last edited by 22hemi13; 02/24/15 02:43 PM.
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Re: Tight grouping without sled or bench?
[Re: 22hemi13]
#5617267
02/24/15 02:56 PM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 15,606
603Country
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I use a front bull bag and a rear bunny ear bag. I have two rifles that are capable of shooting 5 into one hole. Both have after market barrels, tuned triggers and actions. Still, it's not very common for me to do my part well enough to shoot a one hole group. I laugh about it, but after putting 4 in one hole, it's the 5th shot that's hard to make.
Your rifle may be shooting as well as possible, but worthwhile additions that might improve your shooting but won't cost much money are the rear bunny ear bag (with the knowledge of how to use it) and a Timney trigger.
I had a couple of guys here this past weekend, and one of them was a good shooter. He had a one hole group going while shooting my old 220, and I handed him one more round. He gave it back and said "Nah, I'll just stop here". He walked down and pulled the target and took it with him when they left. I wonder how many shots he'll say went into that hole. :-)
Not my monkeys, not my circus...
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Re: Tight grouping without sled or bench?
[Re: 22hemi13]
#5617291
02/24/15 03:06 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,453
dfwroadkill
Veteran Tracker
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I ususally just flip it up from the hip and squeeze one off as I pass through the target.
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Re: Tight grouping without sled or bench?
[Re: 603Country]
#5617364
02/24/15 03:51 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,083
J.G.
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"Three tests the load, four tests the rifle, five tests the shooter."
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: Tight grouping without sled or bench?
[Re: 22hemi13]
#5617369
02/24/15 03:55 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,907
ChadTRG42
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99% of my shooting is from the prone position. If I am not using a bipod and rear bag, then I am using a sandbag front and rear bag. Bench is fine. But NO lead sled!!!! Bad Bad Bad!!!
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Re: Tight grouping without sled or bench?
[Re: 22hemi13]
#5617571
02/24/15 05:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 21,370
Bullfrog
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What's the position when you're on a bench and you put a bag under the butt, and you almost cross your arms to the point your non trigger hand is holding that bag for more control? Is there a term for that?
Man if I knew what Oxner knows I could throw away what I know
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Re: Tight grouping without sled or bench?
[Re: 22hemi13]
#5617908
02/24/15 08:56 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,407
WileyCoyote
THF Trophy Hunter
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With my left hand, I reach for the butt, laying my arm underneath the butt and lay the rifle butt's toe in the pocket between my thumb & forefinger like a backwards pool cue and on top of the rear bag... this on guns that don't have much recoil.
On hard kickers I guide the butt tighter into the cup 'tween my rotator cuff and outside edge of my shoulder and inside of the collar bone joint & try to fold the PAST Pad in half around the rifle butt I'm so deep into the cup of the shoulder. Having a sling mounted on the stud also allows better grip of the sling to jam the butt into my shouder on really hard kickers or guns with slippery butt plates.
Having short arms, fingers and chubby thick shoulders doan't help either. Ron
It is TIME for Term Limits, cause Politicians are like childrens diapers and for the same reasons...Robin Williams "These are the times that try men's soul's"...Thomas Paine
"Those who fail to learn from History are doomed to repeat it" ....Santayana
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Re: Tight grouping without sled or bench?
[Re: 22hemi13]
#5618000
02/24/15 09:29 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 7,806
Deerhunter61
THF Trophy Hunter
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I control my breathing very well and trigger squeeze is good. Scope is good to go and I'm relaxed. Think I just need to try out some bags and rests. Maybe a bipod and prone. I'm shooting an old Stevens 110E 30-06 grouping is just over 1" 3 round groups @100yds. I shoot my wife's ruger .270 and I get 1"@100yds. Just not on top of eachother I want the same dang hole Same hole...great goal but tough to do even with a custom rig. I've done it a few times with three bullets but only with sand bags etc and never done it with five rounds...just three rounds. They always open up on the fourth shot...lol
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Re: Tight grouping without sled or bench?
[Re: J.G.]
#5618021
02/24/15 09:40 PM
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 351
southern_fowler
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 351 |
"Three tests the load, four tests the rifle, five tests the shooter." I like that!
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