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#5594210 - 02/11/15 12:30 PM Hollow Point Bullet Question
DCmac Offline
Outdoorsman

Registered: 11/04/13
Posts: 73
Loc: SW OK
About hollow point bullets for personal protection, self defense.
Does it really make a difference if the HP is "pre-filled" like Hornady Critical Defense or if the HP is left empty/unfilled like most other brands.
Hornady's advertising spiel makes it sound more than reasonable that their pre-filled HP is the best and only ammo anyone should be using for self defense because (or so they say) it won't get clogged by leather or heavy clothing. And the Hornady website shows what's implied as other manufacturer's unfilled HPs that malfunctioned (didn't mushroom) on terminal effect.
Background for the question is that DW wants to ditch her little 38 revolver for a 380ACP like one of her friends just bought - and I can hardly blame her, it's a super-nice little pistol. Rightly or wrongly, it's my feeling that with her going to the 380 she needs all the help she can get from the lighter caliber and if having the HP "pre-filled" will help, then that's the route to go.

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#5594263 - 02/11/15 12:51 PM Re: Hollow Point Bullet Question [Re: DCmac]
ChadTRG42 Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 9433
Loc: Lewisville, TX
There's only been a few products or improvements to products that make me go wow, and the Hornady critical defense bullet is one of them. Their rubber/polymer fill they put into the HP part of the bullet does solve a problem. It does not fill with foreign material, like a traditional HP does. It also provides guaranteed expansion in soft tissue, where other HP will not. I carry the Hornady ammo with these bullets in my 40 cal.

On the 380 idea, that's a personal preference. If the option is a 380 or not to carry, I'll take a 380. But there are other calibers that will perform better with greater energy and speed.
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#5594285 - 02/11/15 12:58 PM Re: Hollow Point Bullet Question [Re: DCmac]
BCJ Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 06/01/05
Posts: 1987
Loc: Frisco
I use the Hornady Critcal defense in my daily carry also; Glock 27. My wife had a 38 revolver and a CHL when I met her but wouldn't ever carry it because of bulk and weight. I bought her a LCP 380 with critical defense rounds - it's small enough that she will actually carry it. I'd rather her have a less powerful gun on her than have a harder hitting gun sitting at home.

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#5594311 - 02/11/15 01:10 PM Re: Hollow Point Bullet Question [Re: DCmac]
Skip Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 10/23/06
Posts: 1177
Loc: Hewitt, Texas
I like Hornady ammo. That being said I'm not convinced the critical defense hollow point is any better than any other hollow point. What I personally look at is the speed of the bullet as it exits the barrel.
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#5594552 - 02/11/15 03:47 PM Re: Hollow Point Bullet Question [Re: DCmac]
JCB Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 02/06/07
Posts: 22839
Loc: M.I.A.
I will never understand the concept behind clogging up your hollow point with material before its ever fired. It goes against everything I have learned over the years about hollow points. With that being said I intend to pick up a few boxes to test out on different materials just to see for myself.

On the 380 note: Best ammo I have seen for the 380 so far is the PDX1. Me and my brother tested the 380 Speer Gold Dot and the Winchester PDX1 side by side and to my surprised the PDX1 blew away the competition. I am a HUGE Gold Dot fan but out of the 3 Gold Dots we tested in 380 one was lost in the berm due to over penetration (pretty sure it failed to open up) and the other two didn't look much like a hollow point should at all. 380 is the only caliber I have ever seen a Gold Dot fail to open in. I have also seen Remington UMC hollow points fail to open in 380 as well.

I have found that the 380 is one caliber where you have to watch your bullet choice very very carefully!

PDX1 on top, and Gold Dots on the bottom.

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#5594571 - 02/11/15 04:03 PM Re: Hollow Point Bullet Question [Re: JCB]
RiverRider Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 6227
Loc: Wise Co.
Originally Posted By: JCB
I will never understand the concept behind clogging up your hollow point with material before its ever fired.



Do you care to rephrase that? I think the concept is actually more like the hollow cavity being filled with fabric, leather, or what-have-you prior to encountering flesh or soft tissue thereby inhibiting expansion. I'm pretty sure no one is concerned with something clogging the hollow cavity before the round is ever fired.
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Originally Posted By: Cleric
God I am hating caliber threads more and more

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#5594576 - 02/11/15 04:07 PM Re: Hollow Point Bullet Question [Re: RiverRider]
redchevy Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 10/25/04
Posts: 23463
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Originally Posted By: JCB
I will never understand the concept behind clogging up your hollow point with material before its ever fired.



Do you care to rephrase that? I think the concept is actually more like the hollow cavity being filled with fabric, leather, or what-have-you prior to encountering flesh or soft tissue thereby inhibiting expansion. I'm pretty sure no one is concerned with something clogging the hollow cavity before the round is ever fired.


So how is filling the HP/cavity before it hits fabric going to improve it from being filled on compact?
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#5594593 - 02/11/15 04:18 PM Re: Hollow Point Bullet Question [Re: DCmac]
ChadTRG42 Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 9433
Loc: Lewisville, TX
A standard HP bullet will clog up with whatever material it hits before it reaches soft tissue- leather, denim, cloth, etc. This heavy material can fill the HP of the bullet and make it act like a FMJ. It will penetrate deep and not open up. This is a proven with terminal ballistics testing. The Hornady CD bullet fills this with a rubber type material that does not allow the clothing and such to fill the HP up, yet does not allow the HP to open up either. When the Hornady CD bullet reaches soft tissue, the soft tissue causes the rubber material to compress and hydraulically open and expand the HP. No other bullet works like this. The Hornady CD bullet will go through most materials, and still open up when it hits soft tissue. Sure, a standard HP bullet is a good SD bullet to have. But this Hornady CD bullet takes it to a new level of performance. There are good bullets, and then there are better bullets. The Hornady CD bullet is definitely a better bullet.
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#5594595 - 02/11/15 04:19 PM Re: Hollow Point Bullet Question [Re: RiverRider]
JCB Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 02/06/07
Posts: 22839
Loc: M.I.A.
Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Originally Posted By: JCB
I will never understand the concept behind clogging up your hollow point with material before its ever fired.



Do you care to rephrase that? I think the concept is actually more like the hollow cavity being filled with fabric, leather, or what-have-you prior to encountering flesh or soft tissue thereby inhibiting expansion. I'm pretty sure no one is concerned with something clogging the hollow cavity before the round is ever fired.


crazy

Clogged is clogged. I don't care what the material is. If it aint flesh it don't belong in the cavity. JMO
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#5594616 - 02/11/15 04:36 PM Re: Hollow Point Bullet Question [Re: ChadTRG42]
redchevy Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 10/25/04
Posts: 23463
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
A standard HP bullet will clog up with whatever material it hits before it reaches soft tissue- leather, denim, cloth, etc. This heavy material can fill the HP of the bullet and make it act like a FMJ. It will penetrate deep and not open up. This is a proven with terminal ballistics testing. The Hornady CD bullet fills this with a rubber type material that does not allow the clothing and such to fill the HP up, yet does not allow the HP to open up either. When the Hornady CD bullet reaches soft tissue, the soft tissue causes the rubber material to compress and hydraulically open and expand the HP. No other bullet works like this. The Hornady CD bullet will go through most materials, and still open up when it hits soft tissue. Sure, a standard HP bullet is a good SD bullet to have. But this Hornady CD bullet takes it to a new level of performance. There are good bullets, and then there are better bullets. The Hornady CD bullet is definitely a better bullet.


Sounds like a soft point/round nose/fmj would have been a much better solution than making a hollow point that doesn't act like a hollow point. Also... what keeps the leather/denim/fabric from making the rubber material compress? Sounds like a lot of marketing to me.
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#5595344 - 02/11/15 10:16 PM Re: Hollow Point Bullet Question [Re: ChadTRG42]
BigPig Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 08/27/09
Posts: 9548
Loc: Forney, Tx
Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
A standard HP bullet will clog up with whatever material it hits before it reaches soft tissue- leather, denim, cloth, etc. This heavy material can fill the HP of the bullet and make it act like a FMJ. It will penetrate deep and not open up. This is a proven with terminal ballistics testing. The Hornady CD bullet fills this with a rubber type material that does not allow the clothing and such to fill the HP up, yet does not allow the HP to open up either. When the Hornady CD bullet reaches soft tissue, the soft tissue causes the rubber material to compress and hydraulically open and expand the HP. No other bullet works like this. The Hornady CD bullet will go through most materials, and still open up when it hits soft tissue. Sure, a standard HP bullet is a good SD bullet to have. But this Hornady CD bullet takes it to a new level of performance. There are good bullets, and then there are better bullets. The Hornady CD bullet is definitely a better bullet.


This is on the right track. The simple answer is YES, the critical defense and critical duty is the best ammo available. I went to a Hornady range day where they set up 6 different scenarios, all based on the FBI standards for measuring a bullets effectiveness. To make the test fair, all Hornady ammo was fired from a spectators weapon. This was tested against Winchester Ranger in both 9mm and 357 Sig.

The first test was clothing, 2 layers, a denim jacket and shirt, followed by a gel block. In this test the ammo peformmed as well as others, although my 357 duty ammo over penetrated and exited the back of the 20 inch block resulting in a failure. The same test with same brand of 9mm passed the test although it did not open up uniformly and almost came out the top of the gel. Both 9mm and 357sig from Hornady passed the test and had a uniform expansion.
Test 2 was was through sheet rock and then the same clothing as above. The 9mm Win passed but did not retain its full jacket. The 357 Sig Win exited the back for a failure. The 9mm and 357 sig Hornady both passed with uniformed expansion and did not separate from the jacket.
Test 3 was bare gel. 9mm win passed but failed to expand, 357 sig once again over penetrated. 9mm and 357 Hornady had good expansion and didnt exit the gel.
Test 4 was sheet metal into gel. 9mm and 357 Winchester passed but the results were poor. Both had un uniformed expansion and lost parts of their jacket. 9 and 357 Hornady penetrated almost equally and had very unifrom expansion and maintained a straight course.
Test 5 was through automotive glass and into gel block 6 inches away. Glass does very strange things to bullets. 9mm Win separated the jacket from the core, leaving 2 wound channels neither of which was very deep. 357 Winchester also separated creating 2 wound channels and the core of the bullet exited the gel block after only being inside for 4 inches. The 9mm and 357 Hornady stayed intact, had almost perfect expansion and penetrated about 6 inches.

I cant remember what the 6th test was, but the Winchester Ranger failed 4 of the 6 test, Hornady passed all the test. I never gave it much thought, but after seeing it firsthand I am now a believer. On top of that, I carry a 357 Sig because I also though faster was better, but in the case of the test results, the 9mm performed equally as well as the 357Sig. If my department ever changes tot he Hornady Critical Duty then I will switch to 9mm.
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Originally Posted By: bill oxner
Ever spit it out rather than swallow it?

Originally Posted By: pegasaurus
Enjoy it while you can. One day you might be complaining about NOT getting random pop-ups in the morning. grin

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#5595404 - 02/11/15 10:59 PM Re: Hollow Point Bullet Question [Re: DCmac]
TheOilman Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 03/25/13
Posts: 191
Guys a simple youtube search will show you a bunch of videos that prove the theory behind the Hornady bullet. Yes it works and works well. Not trying to be an [censored] but the engineers at Hornady are a little more qualifed on the matter than a few guys on a forum. You can always order some ballistic gel and test yourself like the people on the videos, if you do I bet you will be carrying Hornady in your CCW like me.

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#5595462 - 02/12/15 01:08 AM Re: Hollow Point Bullet Question [Re: DCmac]
blackcoal Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 01/19/12
Posts: 7571
Loc: 60 Mi North of DFW
Can I get some ballistic gel that acts like bone & muscle on PPC ?? What about if the fellow being shot has some telephone books inside his windbreaker?
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it is the illusion of knowledge.--Stephen Hawking

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#5595583 - 02/12/15 07:26 AM Re: Hollow Point Bullet Question [Re: blackcoal]
BigPig Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 08/27/09
Posts: 9548
Loc: Forney, Tx
Originally Posted By: blackcoal
Can I get some ballistic gel that acts like bone & muscle on PPC ?? What about if the fellow being shot has some telephone books inside his windbreaker?


Then you move to a head shot!

And if by PPC you are referring to PCP, refer to my answer above.


Edited by BigPig (02/12/15 07:28 AM)
_________________________
Originally Posted By: bill oxner
Ever spit it out rather than swallow it?

Originally Posted By: pegasaurus
Enjoy it while you can. One day you might be complaining about NOT getting random pop-ups in the morning. grin

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#5595654 - 02/12/15 08:21 AM Re: Hollow Point Bullet Question [Re: DCmac]
ChadTRG42 Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 9433
Loc: Lewisville, TX
The world must be flat and the engineers at Hornady don't know a thing about terminal ballistics!
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www.DallasReloads.com
Type 01 and Type 06 FFL

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