Don't mean to beat a dead horse and maybe this has been discussed.

However please bare with me.

My question is.

Is the HF "deer breeding genetic manipulation ranch" with breeder pens who releases semi tame deer for "hunting" worse or the same as a HF ranch who manages the existing wild native whitetail herds and offer's "hunting" ?

Is the HF exotic ranch who offers put and take exotic hunts worse or the same as a HF ranch who introduces several herds of various animals (game which may be almost impossible to hunt in their native country) for the purposes of one day providing a self sustaining hunt able herd?

I'm just trying to see if there is any toleration or middle ground for a HF under any circumstance by our anti-HF THF members.

Thank you for your time.

My opinion and $5 will get you a cup of coffee, but I think they all have their place. I have a friend who is starting a new exotic ranch in Jarrell and I hope to hunt it one day. I normally hunt low fence and public lands. The "canned" hunts with tame or semi tame animals is more about slaughter than hunting in my opinion, but that is the choice of the "hunter".

An acquaintance of mine owns and operates a HF place. I think it's around 2400 acres. He has introduced some genetics, and they manage the deer very precisely, keeping up with herd numbers and ratios. Lots of protein is fed, and yes there are feeders and blinds, but the deer are nowhere near being tame. The cover is dense. It's an otherwise typical Texas deer hunting situation, except there's a chance that a 180+ WT buck will step out. From time to time there have been deer escape from that place and so the genetics of proximate ranches benfit from this operation. There's a place for these type operations in my opinion.
Now, on the other hand.... My Bil was invited by a client to go to a famous exotic HF ranch near San Antonio. Those animals were in 40 acre paddocks and it was like shooting cattle. He shot a very nice fallow buck and he literally had to get the guide to honk the horn and make a commotion so that the deer would stand up. Bil was turned off by the whole experience. (He still had it mounted, and it hangs in his office. Quite an impressive trophy if you don't know the whole story. The BIL is a great guy, and wouldn't ever stretch a story, so I'm sure he gets embarrassed when he has to tell about the "hunt." I guess as long as there's people with more money than sense, there'll be a demand for such operations. It's not my style. I'd probably go if it was free though....

DeepSea & D Red Raider

In my experience quality run HF ranches have provided me with some great new adventures and memories. Then again I've never honked up a fallow or shot anything in a 40 acre pasture. Hope BIL gives it another chance. These ranches have allowed me to pursue game that I might not normally get to enjoy. Like I would never plan a trip to India to take a Blackbuck or my said "you are not going to Iran". Now in my opinion... ... is HF the only place one should ever hunt ! No, but I feel a quality HF ranch when combined with LF and NF adventures can offer some nice benefits. Ranches which have provided habitat to carry on a species that may have otherwise perished. I would hate to think that the white rhino would only be good for a poacher to sell as a wood maker.

Thanks for the reply's so far. Please keep them coming.

That is definetly one of the upsides to HF ranches. There are many species of exotics that are thriving here in TX that are near gone in their native lands.

If you have a large area...high fence it...do not introduce any new genetics....and then manage the habitat and cull the deer to get good buck to doe ratios, take out less desirable deer and let the bucks age....I see nothing wrong with that. You are not handling the animals, and while it's not the same as low fence free range I
think most of us would do this if we had the ability.

I do not have any issue with hunters or outfitters that like HF operations that buy stocker bucks and let then loose provided the area HF'ed is large (say 600 acres), they do not over stock it, it has cover, and the animals are let loose well before the time they are hunted so they are acclimated to the area. This is a one of those things where the beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Not for everyone and some operations do it well and others do it poorly. If an outfitter shows you a picture of a specific deer and says you can come out and shoot that deer in a day ....well, you be the judge.

Exotics are a whole different story as they are not native and many of us either do not wish to travel to the areas where they are native (some of the non-American) wild sheep or can't afford them. So there I think it all boils down to the size of the HF'ed operation, the terrain and the cover, and how long the animals have been in that HF and how wary they are. Hunting an animal released a year ago is going to be different to hunt then one bought Thursday from WildlifeBuyer.com and released on Friday for a hunt on Saturday. Several ranches have herds of exotics that have been on the ranches for years.... some ranches have breeding pens and release shooters. So with the exotics whether you establish a herd on the HF or stock it from time to time, I think it all depends on the size of the HF, the terrain and the cover, how the animals are handled and how long they have been in the enclosure.

So I think you can create a HF operations that's a good experience in all 4 scenarios, and in the case of exotics you really have no option but to do a HF given they are non-native species.

That said I am sure that there will be some comments that will condemn all HF'ed operations.

You make some good points about exotics that folks would not normally get to hunt.

All of this LF-HF hunting is really a bunch of crap. The so called LF purest who see themselves as true hunters as opposed to HF hunters who they refer to as only killers really cracks me up. The LF so called "Hunter" and I use the term very loosely sits in a probably heated tall box blind. He has corn and protein feeders in front of him as well as numerous senderos cut so he can ambush any thing that ventures in their area of sight. So called hunting like that is not hunting it is baiting. You are competing with those around your area on who can best bribe the deer to come visit. Back years ago when I guided I had those that in their minds considered themselves real hunters. A few probably were but most if they got out of the stand would be lost. I am not especially fond of bow hunters because of some problems in the past. But a bow hunter that will actually stalk an animal, not sit in a tree trying to ambush one is a real hunter. And that could be either HF or LF.

^^^ Thanks Gentleman ^^^^ Nice level headed well thought out responses.

Your welcome. We are always here to help.

But sometimes we tell a story or two!

Everyone has a slightly different preference. Tony has outlined his (as have others). But I don't want Tony or anyone else deciding mine.

I practice what I preach. I don't want to change the way anyone else hunts.

I see the differences you mention in the opening post. But I don't think it's my place to support or poo poo either.

I provide HF opportunities for exotics, improved genetic deer (don't have a breeder's permit, the deer were here when I bought the place and are not in pens), and native hill country and south Texas deer. But I also provide low fenced opportunities.

For me, it isn't about "approving" of the HF or the hunting that goes on behind them. No different than "approving" of the way someone hunts, whether it is LF or HF. I don't like seeing the HF places going up but that is because of a personal preference, not a biased and I believe more in property rights than the HF debate about restricting deer movement, so I wouldn't fight against them. I do feel bad for the small land owner that gets HF'ed out and have sympathy for them but I also feel sorry for the small businesses that go under because of big box stores.

As far as the deer or hunt go, being native versus introduced, etc, it is more about what impresses me more than the other. A 170" deer has a different meaning for me if it came off a HF ranch with all native than it does if it came off a ranch with introduced genetics or a LF. No different than if it was taken with a bow, rifle or traditional though.

I don't have an issue with someone hunting in any of them. Exotics are about the same. A free range audoud taken in the caprock canyons is more impressive to me than one taken behind a HF in the hill country.

As was said, there is a place for each and the HF offers a place and opportunities for people to hunt animals that they would probably never get to hunt. That could be because of the native range of the animal or even physical limitations of the hunter.

Guess it boils down to what the animal means to me, but I don't think it is right to put down another hunter because of how or where they took their animal as long as it was legal. Just because I wouldn't do it, doesn't make it wrong.

It's like comparing apples to oranges. Put and take hunts discuss me. But.... Supply and demand will always decide the long term viability of all businesses. Even put and take hunts. Property rights cannot be controlled by government to suppress those hunts.

If there is a market for them, so be it. No comparison to the life of a chicken that never leaves it's cage stacked ten high and crapped on from above until it's fattened up enough.....

I am glad there are HF operations that aren't put and take, and provide year round hunting opportunities for beautiful animals, many which are delicious to eat.

I have hunted and will hunt these ranches again and look forward to the next one. Especially when I can't hunt our native game and my trigger finger is getting itchy.

Unless you are hunting native white tail, they are ALL put and take.

Or are some folks under the impression that those axis walked all the way from India??

Rusty, I would never tell another person how or where to hunt as long as it's legal and the hunter is happy with the experience. I just wanted to make that clear.

I thought they swam....

I'm not confused about that at all Tony. Just using u in an example of diff strokes for diff folks and knew u were one of us live and let livers...

I've hunted ranches as small as 50 acres to as big as 20,000. I've hunted low fence, high fence, no fence. I've hunted feeders, bait, safari style, still hunting, and spot and stalk. Some hunts lasted 30 minutes, others lasted 4 days. I've hunted animals that were both put and take and of established herds.
I hunt because I love to spend time in the outdoors and to be with my dad.

No body has the right to deny you happiness and tell you what you can and can not do.
Yes.
You heard me.
I hunted a ranch that was 50 acres. High fence. Up in Pennsylvania. Took a beautiful white fallow. The hunt took me nearly all day. It was thick crap with vines and steep hillsides. The fallows were wild as anything and were far more wild then ones I've seen on a thousand acre places down here in Texas. I was 8 at the time. Sure the ranch owner exaggerated and said it was 250 acres, but in the end, I was a happy boy with a smile on his face, time with my father, and tasty jerky and hamburgers for dinner.

You can laugh all you want at the acreage. You can be a snob and put your nose up because I didn't spend 6,000 on a fallow from an "established herd" at a "big name ranch." You can scuff at the fact I hunted on a HF some place outside Texas.....

Enjoy Yourself The Way You Want Outdoors. Be Happy.

Personally, I don't care if it's high fence or low fence as long as it has self- sustaining herds and is not put and take. It's a personal preference of mine to hunt animals that are part of a breeding herd on a ranch

I do draw the line on extremely small properties (200acre min) but I've had great hunts on 300 acre hf places and 5000+ acre hf places. In all honesty if your hunting over feed it's a moot point how big the place is.

Don, you make good points but in Texas unless you are "rich" or inherited land there's really not much opportunity to "hunt" deer. It's such an outrageous business that owners put as many hunters on the land as possible and that simply doesn't allow stalking game. I hunted public land 15-20 years ago but it just got too dangerous to hunt it and yes to some degree you could hunt that way then but I would do it now.

As for HF vs LF I say it's up to each person to decide. I think we all have different ideas/beliefs of what is or isn't ethical. I agree with some above...if the HF operation is big enough...I like the idea of 2k acres but that doesn't mean if it was 5-600 acres with appropriate cover etc I wouldn't hunt it. The only thing I'm not interested in hunting are deer that have been manufactured/manipulated genetics to have 300+ inches...I just don't have any desire to shoot something like that...it's just not natural as in the chances of it ever happening in the wild are slim and none and slims left town. But if someone else gets satisfaction shooting something like that then more power to him.

That's just not true deerhunter. I flat out don't put too many people on my ranches and you can hunt them any legal way you want.

And I have friends who help me who hunt for free. A LOT of ranchers trade hunting management deer and does for work. It's a cop out to say you have to be rich or inherit land to hunt in Texas.

I have self sustaining herds for the axis, blackbuck, scimitar, and barasingha and have for over a decade. We still bring in some bucks and does just to keep genetics controlled. As for the question on if it makes a difference to most hunters, I think to a few it does. Especially the ones that are coming in to hunt a high fence and feel that because its high fence its guaranteed or should be guaranteed success. I feel this way because I have noticed the ones that we bring in when they are young are usually some of the first ones to show up at a feeder or a trail to that or water. If you repeat that process then I guess you could establish that guarantee but that may not be the same for every ranch. It happened like that we we tried that on our place and it happened like that on three other places that I used to hunt near me. I don't like to introduce new genetic but every few years I prefer it to be younger bucks that need at least one year or more to be mature to hunt.

Personally I prefer to have an established herd. I do have some hunters come and not get anything and they get mad when they find out its a hunt and not guaranteed a kill. This happens even when you tell them its not guaranteed at the beginning of the hunt. They still have it in their mind that its a HF and its going to be guaranteed. It's just not always that way.

Very true Rancher. I have 18 acres I just bought in the last few years that a person could fill their tags on the first morning. Plus there are Axis sometimes. And that place could have been paid for what a new dually four wheel drive diesel pickup payments would be.

I will play devils advocate to an extent on put and take hunting. From an ethics standpoint, those animals were bread and born to be hunted. That is their sole purpose. Although more sporting, is it more ethical to sneak up on a native white tail eating breakfast and shoot it as opposed to shooting an animal who exists to be hunted?