Main Menu
Advertisement
Affiliates
Advertisement
Newest Members
BigHit, Sifat, TJWatkins, Jlivi1224, 65chevy
60473 Registered Users
Top Posters
dogcatcher 77465
stxranchman 52092
RWH24 44568
rifleman 43786
BOBO the Clown 41117
BMD 40539
Big Orn 37484
txshntr 33685
bill oxner 32656
sig226fan (Rguns.com) 30571
facebook
Forum Stats
60473 Members
45 Forums
476082 Topics
6245223 Posts

Max Online: 16728 @ 03/25/12 08:51 AM
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#5584699 - 02/05/15 03:57 PM X-sight thoughts and suggestions
Tapper Offline
Light Foot

Registered: 01/24/15
Posts: 29
Loc: Richardson, Texas
Those of us who bought or are thinking of buying the X-sight, have been following along in the threads detailing the various bugs, firmware shortcomings, and power consumption of this new product pretty carefully. But I wanted to post something about the other side of the story - why you might want to hang on to, or even buy, one of these units. I think a lot of guys are very focused on the flawed rollout of the product, and the inconsistent firmware. It's just not a complete product yet, and some folks expect that when they plunk down their money (and rightly so). But not so much with the younger folks though, since most of them have been buying electronics like this for years, and fully understand the vagaries of "firmware". And the scope is frustratingly usable as is, thought it seems reasonable to expect it to be a lot better in the near term.

First of all, while this is not the first video-scope to market, the use of an Ambarella chip opens a big door, and makes the x-sights potentially a disruptive technology (meaning, what people expect and want is going to change because of it). This wont be the last consumer video scope you see, not by a long shot. Expect smaller and more powerful digiscopes, with more and more features, and lower and lower prices.

In the near future, perhaps 3-10 years, I would expect to see CMOS camera sensors running in 4K mode, that can "see" visible light and long-wave IR on the same chip (the X-sight "sees" short wave IR and visible light) at a reasonable price point. OLED displays are getting more and more dense as well, so viewfinders will be clearer and more accurately reflect the actual image the camera is seeing, in very small form factors. And the smaller the chips get, the easier they are on batteries.

I can envision a "scope" about the size of a pack of a cigarettes that can "see" thermal at night or day, provide magnification ranges from 1x to 15x clearly, range a target, automatically adjust the aiming point based on the load fired, inclination and tilt of rifle, weather conditions, spin effect, coriollis effect, whatever. It could identify target species, detect motion across a wide angle FOV, overlay colors onto "hot" items in the display. It could auto-compute the lead and holdover if you are tracking a moving target based on your actual swing speed, keep a database of your favorite loads, and automatically set the zero for each load. It could eliminate mirage, analyze your technique, and play your favorite porn in a picture in picture display while you hunt. Nearly anything an iPhone can do, these package camera systems can do. It opens a lot of doors (some awesomely useful, some incredibly stupid, but choice is a good thing).

I've spent a little time looking at the unit now, and it's clear that its based on an Ambarella system-on-a-Chip, just like the popular GoPro cameras, and a whole host of advanced security cameras. It also contains additional sensors with perhaps unknown capabilities, WiFi, and GPS. At minimum it likely includes a magnetometer chip (compass, hopefully 3-axis). Accelerometers might be useful as well, but have seen no evidence they are included. I sure wish they had included a laser for rangefinding, but hey, it's a first gen product.

That's just a few things,there are more. Whether you want to go this way or not is up to you, but if you want to get on the cutting edge, expect to bleed a little. It's not a place for those lacking patience. On the other hand, gearheads should love this stuff. I do.

With that said, here's what I think ATN should focus on to get this scope where it needs to be, and to make shooters genuinely excited about what it can do - even if it may be a while before all features can be coded and debugged. And this is low-hanging fruit with the existing hardware. Are you listening Sachal? Fix the bugs on existing stuff, and gimmee some goodies!

1. Add a toggleable Shoot mode and Scan mode. Tailor the information displays to what the shooter is doing, rather than trying to cram all modes into a single screen (overlay). Maybe move the camera functions to the menus only, and tie the shoot/scan toggle to the left arrow (this is first and foremost a scope, not a camera - priorities!). In Scan mode, turn on compass, image stabilization, and any other feature appropriate to the mode. Scan mode is where you hit the shooter with lots of info. In Shoot mode, turn off most info, turn off image stabilization, and turn on zero auto-holdover for a shooters chosen range (if shooter configures the feature "on"). In shoot mode, the less distracting crap on screen, the better, Shooters should focus on shooting, not gadgetry.

2. Add real ballistics calculation - First, use Cherokee over the Wifi link, to allow us to easily enter data into the scope, select things, etc. Entering ballistics info through the keypad would be a complete pain, so just accept that shooters need a phone, pad, or PC to set up the ballistics functions. And webpage setups are dirt simple and don't suck up NAND space. Let shooters enter their gun setup - height of scope above bore, rate of twist, bore diameter, etc. in one area (system setup?). Add another page to enter load data, and save it right there on the terminal. Let us name each dataset (ex. "Hornady 120g SST"). Gather up muzzle velocity, BC, etc. for each load. Number it, and limit the number of slots to something manageable like 10. When the shooter wants to select the load for use, he just saves it, and the data is pushed into the scope's corresponding numbered slots. Let the scope store data and zero for 10 scopes. Shouldn't require much memory. Once a slot is made active on the scope, any user changes to the fundamental zero point, are saved to that slot. That way, selecting a slot recalls the zero set by the shooter, and loads the ballistics calculator data. To use, a shooter just menus and picks which slot to use, the sets the range to target manually using a text roller or whatever looks good from the SDK. Tie the set range function to the right arrow. Maybe draw small hashmarks on the vertical crosshair to indicate other calculated ranges besides the currently set range. (-100, -200 -300 +100 +200 etc). I know you guys are working on something like this, but hey - trying to get my dibs in for the way *I* would like it to work!

3. How about using that 3-axis mag chip, and giving us a scope cant (level) meter in shooting mode?
_________________________
Everywhere I go, there I am.

Top
#5584748 - 02/05/15 04:18 PM Re: X-sight thoughts and suggestions [Re: Tapper]
Double Naught Spy Offline
Extreme Tracker

Registered: 05/18/11
Posts: 4175
Loc: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Yes, we all want the scope that does everything we want it to do, with the longest battery life, smallest size, lightest weight, easiest to use, best glass, rated for beyond .50 bmg recoil, at the least price.

Why not make every scope be a merged NV/thermal Trackingpoint scope, but with programmable custom reticles?

Nobody can afford it.
_________________________
Kill a Hog and Save the Planet
My Videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCG6la_HDvAobPBTDtj5B-lQ

Top
#5584785 - 02/05/15 04:31 PM Re: X-sight thoughts and suggestions [Re: Tapper]
Eyesofahunter Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 179
Loc: Hill Country of Texas
clap

While there are frustrations I am in 100% agreement with your comments.

Top
#5584841 - 02/05/15 04:58 PM Re: X-sight thoughts and suggestions [Re: Double Naught Spy]
Tapper Offline
Light Foot

Registered: 01/24/15
Posts: 29
Loc: Richardson, Texas
Originally Posted By: Double Naught Spy
Yes, we all want the scope that does everything we want it to do, with the longest battery life, smallest size, lightest weight, easiest to use, best glass, rated for beyond .50 bmg recoil, at the least price.

Why not make every scope be a merged NV/thermal Trackingpoint scope, but with programmable custom reticles?

Nobody can afford it.


Not a Tech guy, are you.
_________________________
Everywhere I go, there I am.

Top
#5584991 - 02/05/15 06:05 PM Re: X-sight thoughts and suggestions [Re: Tapper]
HuntTXhogs Offline
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 05/04/10
Posts: 2972
Loc: North Ft Worth
Tapper -

What convinces you that the X-sight has the chip you aare referring to? Got pictures of it? It is possible that the coding is shared but an alternate chip is in use, either way you are the second to say it has it so just looking for undisputed fact.

As for people expecting teething pains due to it being tech based and correlating that to other devices. I say caution is a must because this particular device guides a bullet downrange with the intent to kill its target. Glitches are hardly acceptable in my opinion and hacking (homebrew) of the scope may actually present an opportunity for laws to be made against the act.

I am in agreement with you on technologies development and what the future could look like. I actually hope it doesn't pan out in some regards as I feel animals won't stand a chance against novice hunters and if missing becomes less frequent than learning may occur less often. Also I don't see police (LE) allowing the tech to get that sophisticated for obvious reasons.

I like your built in level idea.

Not a tech guy here either by the way

HTXH wink

Top
#5585226 - 02/05/15 07:30 PM Re: X-sight thoughts and suggestions [Re: HuntTXhogs]
Tapper Offline
Light Foot

Registered: 01/24/15
Posts: 29
Loc: Richardson, Texas
Originally Posted By: HuntTXhogs
Tapper -

What convinces you that the X-sight has the chip you aare referring to? Got pictures of it? It is possible that the coding is shared but an alternate chip is in use, either way you are the second to say it has it so just looking for undisputed fact.


Use Notepad on your computer, and open the xsight.bin file with it. Scroll a bit, and you'll see why we know it's an Ambarella board. I looked at the chips, and based on what I saw in the cut sheets, I'd hazard a guess it's either an A5 or A5S package. Could be a later REV. The code mostly ports between REVs. I think they added a 3-axis magnetometer on the i2c or GPIO bus. They're using an 800x600 OLED for the viewfinder, probably connected on the boards HDMI port. Dunno what camera they are using, but it's probably a vanilla CMOS chip with the IR cut filter removed, or possibly servo'ed with another filter. If it was something special, it would show up in their marketing pitch.

Originally Posted By: HuntTXhogs
As for people expecting teething pains due to it being tech based and correlating that to other devices. I say caution is a must because this particular device guides a bullet downrange with the intent to kill its target. Glitches are hardly acceptable in my opinion and hacking (homebrew) of the scope may actually present an opportunity for laws to be made against the act.


I can't disagree with that, but likewise it is reasonable to expect that any first generation electronic device will experience teething pains. Risk vs. Reward. And someone has to be first with it. Hopefully ATN understands the need to get good solid code in these units. I would be heartily surprised, if their geeks weren't being sweated like hothouse chickens right about now. And technology is the great democratizer, it's not just what this unit can do, but what the price point does - brings reasonably priced NV to guys that can't afford $3,000 thermals. It can also significantly extend the range, of an average shooter that doesn't know an MOA from a Mil from a mosquito. You're going to see $200 dollar versions of this unit coming out of China post haste.

I can't speak pro or con about the liability of wh4ck1ng up their code, but it would take a long time, and it would be much faster to just write your own code from scratch.

Originally Posted By: HuntTXhogs
I am in agreement with you on technologies development and what the future could look like. I actually hope it doesn't pan out in some regards as I feel animals won't stand a chance against novice hunters and if missing becomes less frequent than learning may occur less often. Also I don't see police (LE) allowing the tech to get that sophisticated for obvious reasons.


Actually, I think the statistics on the thing will probably continue to bear out, that novice hunters will still perform like novice hunters, regardless of the current state of technology, and for some time to come.

Originally Posted By: HuntTXhogs
I like your built in level idea.

Not a tech guy here either by the way

HTXH wink


Well, I make my living pushing bits, but don't hold it against me. I like to shoot hogs too..


Edited by Tapper (02/05/15 07:36 PM)
_________________________
Everywhere I go, there I am.

Top
#5586107 - 02/06/15 09:26 AM Re: X-sight thoughts and suggestions [Re: Tapper]
MoShootr Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 01/15/15
Posts: 103
I'm 100% on board with what Tapper's saying here, and I hope ATN is listening to his ideas, because they are spot on.

USER INTERFACE is hugely important, so dont just think about features, but how to make them USEFUL to the guy out in the field.

I'm also glad there's a counterpoint to the doom and gloom crowd. When I have more first-hand data to add, I certainly will.
_________________________
"Being Right, and being Reasonable, are not automatically synonymous." - Me

Top
#5589299 - 02/08/15 03:43 PM Re: X-sight thoughts and suggestions [Re: MoShootr]
Tapper Offline
Light Foot

Registered: 01/24/15
Posts: 29
Loc: Richardson, Texas
Kinda hoping other folks have some ideas for this sight.
_________________________
Everywhere I go, there I am.

Top
#5589413 - 02/08/15 05:03 PM Re: X-sight thoughts and suggestions [Re: Tapper]
shoots100 Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 131
Loc: Flatlands of NY
Originally Posted By: Tapper
Kinda hoping other folks have some ideas for this sight.


In the future, If ATN could offer a custom firmware tailored to their customers needs, that would be great.
I don't need all the bells and whistles. AkA- WIFI, Compass, Geo Tagging, Clock Etc....
I do like the idea of the BDC reticle, as I plan on mounting it on a .260 one day to do some longer range shooting in Day mode.
If the newest firmware update takes care of the disappearing reticle during zoom, is bright in NV mode and has the reticle
while recording, I'll be satisfied.
When that day comes, I'll buy a 3x unit too.

Top
#5591295 - 02/09/15 05:35 PM Re: X-sight thoughts and suggestions [Re: Tapper]
MoShootr Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 01/15/15
Posts: 103
Oh, I have all kinds of ideas for the X-Sight. Like. Tons. I've just been berated in other threads for talking about it before mine arrives, so ninja I'll stay put till I actually have it, and can post with "authority".
_________________________
"Being Right, and being Reasonable, are not automatically synonymous." - Me

Top
#5593645 - 02/11/15 07:30 AM Re: X-sight thoughts and suggestions [Re: Tapper]
VAFish Offline
Outdoorsman

Registered: 02/09/15
Posts: 99
Loc: Fairfax, VA
I'd just like to see custom or customizable reticles.

I'd like to have a dot sight like my crossbow has with 3 different dots for 30, 40, and 50 yards.
_________________________
"If your plan is for one year, plant rice.
If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."
-- Confucius

Top
#5593716 - 02/11/15 08:16 AM Re: X-sight thoughts and suggestions [Re: Tapper]
hopalong Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 12/05/10
Posts: 1409
Loc: manager, drake river ranch (fo...
2. Add real ballistics calculation - First, use Cherokee over the Wifi link, to allow us to easily enter data into the scope, select things, etc. Entering ballistics info through the keypad would be a complete pain, so just accept that shooters need a phone, pad, or PC to set up the ballistics functions. And webpage setups are dirt simple and don't suck up NAND space. Let shooters enter their gun setup - height of scope above bore, rate of twist, bore diameter, etc. in one area (system setup?). Add another page to enter load data, and save it right there on the terminal. Let us name each dataset (ex. "Hornady 120g SST"). Gather up muzzle velocity, BC, etc. for each load. Number it, and limit the number of slots to something manageable like 10. When the shooter wants to select the load for use, he just saves it, and the data is pushed into the scope's corresponding numbered slots. Let the scope store data and zero for 10 scopes. Shouldn't require much memory. Once a slot is made active on the scope, any user changes to the fundamental zero point, are saved to that slot. That way, selecting a slot recalls the zero set by the shooter, and loads the ballistics calculator data. To use, a shooter just menus and picks which slot to use, the sets the range to target manually using a text roller or whatever looks good from the SDK. Tie the set range function to the right arrow. Maybe draw small hashmarks on the vertical crosshair to indicate other calculated ranges besides the currently set range. (-100, -200 -300 +100 +200 etc). I know you guys are working on something like this, but hey - trying to get my dibs in for the way *I* would like it to work!


this is all out there already in the burris eliminator scopes, not as intensive as what you listed but with the ballistics chart and 4,000 loads to enter you can pretty much program any load out there, even hand loads. it would be nice to program in the round like the burris and get a holdover dot similar, simplifies things immensely. I have a burris eliminator III and am about to order a 5-18 x sight (hoping I am tech savy enough to be able to use this thing) as a trial for possibly buying some to have on hand for our paid pig/coyote hunts.
_________________________


lake fork FISHERMANS COVE MARINA - 903 474 7479 reservations

Top
#5594279 - 02/11/15 12:57 PM Re: X-sight thoughts and suggestions [Re: Tapper]
cyberpyrot Offline
Tracker

Registered: 07/24/13
Posts: 915
Loc: Houston, TX
how hard would it be to create an app separate from the scope that has all of this that tells you where to manually move your X/Y coordinates? I mean its all basic math with constants right? if I know the formulas I could whip something up in windows. so ok you zero in at 100 yards x/y is constant for 100 yards just figure out what + or - equates to from original poi and then its simple math right?


Edited by cyberpyrot (02/11/15 01:00 PM)
_________________________
I'm a terrible shot but I follow up with a grenade!

Top
#5595139 - 02/11/15 09:07 PM Re: X-sight thoughts and suggestions [Re: cyberpyrot]
Tapper Offline
Light Foot

Registered: 01/24/15
Posts: 29
Loc: Richardson, Texas
Originally Posted By: cyberpyrot
how hard would it be to create an app separate from the scope that has all of this that tells you where to manually move your X/Y coordinates? I mean its all basic math with constants right? if I know the formulas I could whip something up in windows. so ok you zero in at 100 yards x/y is constant for 100 yards just figure out what + or - equates to from original poi and then its simple math right?


It wouldn't be that hard, but would take a bit of time to write it if you had to build a user interface for it. The equations all exist online. Interesting sidebar - How many pixels per MOA at 1X? 5X? How does that play out when shooting at longer ranges?
_________________________
Everywhere I go, there I am.

Top
#5595839 - 02/12/15 10:20 AM Re: X-sight thoughts and suggestions [Re: Tapper]
MoShootr Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 01/15/15
Posts: 103
From what I understand, it's not that simple. Sachal alluded to the fact that the picture the sensor sees has to be calculated based on the lenses (IE: you CANNOT set your 3x scope to the 5x firmware setting, and have it work correctly)

However, there's other factors involved, especially with longer-range shots.
- Ballistic Coefficient
- Wind, crosswind, double crosswind?
- Bullet Spin Drift
- Coriolis Effect (spin of the earth)
- Temperature (affects burn rate of powder)

Now, that doesn't mean ALL of this needs to be calculated. The shooter still has plenty of work they need to do, and I worry that many shooters will blame the SCOPE for not being smart enough - when really, it's a lack of their skill or a variable they didn't account for.

That said, this is why I also want CUSTOM reticle options. We need reticles that include BDC & Drift marks, to help shooters with these calculations in their minds - due to environmental changes beyond the scope's ability to compensate - without giving the shooter information overload.
_________________________
"Being Right, and being Reasonable, are not automatically synonymous." - Me

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >



© 2004-2016 OUTDOOR SITES NETWORK all rights reserved USA and Worldwide