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Max Online: 16728 @ 03/25/12 08:51 AM
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#5571884 - 01/29/15 06:23 PM What To Do?
Varget 7-08 Offline
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Registered: 04/04/10
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Loc: SA / Helotes, TX
I'm doing load work up with my precision .223/5.56 AR, and haven't found anything magical yet. Doing load work up at 200 yards, I'm barely averaging MOA. I tried .3 grain increments from high to low with varying OAL, and still nothing. Bullet is a 75Gr Hornady BTHP, powder is Varget with a CCI primer and Lake City brass. Others have reported very mediocre results with the Hornady 75 BTHP, so I'm thinking maybe try a new bullet? Use is just for killing steel. Work up done with a bipod and rear bag and a quality trigger.

Thanks!

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#5571891 - 01/29/15 06:27 PM Re: What To Do? [Re: Varget 7-08]
ChadTRG42 Online   happy
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 9398
Loc: Lewisville, TX
What are the groups doing? Is there a pattern to your groups? Are you chamfering the case mouth before bullet seating? Are you doing any case prep to the brass before hand? 2.250"? What was you max load for Varget you tried? Today I took delivery of 1K of the same 75 BTHP bullets to start playing with in my Tikka T3 Varmint in 223. I'll start with TAC in mine, or Win 748.
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#5571942 - 01/29/15 06:56 PM Re: What To Do? [Re: Varget 7-08]
jdk1985 Online   content
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Registered: 08/15/11
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I shoot the 75gr BTHP Match w/ cannelure Horandy bullets. I don't have a "precision" AR so to speak. My DD MK18 (10.3") keeps them MOA or slightly better. With a 4MOA Aimpoint, I'm pretty happy with that. I know every barrel is different.

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#5571964 - 01/29/15 07:09 PM Re: What To Do? [Re: Varget 7-08]
Varget 7-08 Offline
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Registered: 04/04/10
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Chad, I uniformed primer pocket depth, cleaned primer pocket, OAL is trimmed to 1.758 (I think), and chamfer inside the case mouth. Best groups I got were with 2.258. I didn't go further because of OAL in the mag.

My groups seem to spread out over windage

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#5572126 - 01/29/15 08:18 PM Re: What To Do? [Re: Varget 7-08]
ChadTRG42 Online   happy
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Registered: 09/16/09
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All LC brass, same head stamp? What powder charges did you try? What scope and reticle are you using? Can you see a small aiming point with the scope you are running? (i.e.- is the scope you have able to see a small aiming spot capable of shooting small groups).
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#5572168 - 01/29/15 08:38 PM Re: What To Do? [Re: Varget 7-08]
RiverRider Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Varget 7-08


My groups seem to spread out over windage


Are you saying the dispersion is mainly lateral?
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Originally Posted By: Cleric
God I am hating caliber threads more and more

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#5572234 - 01/29/15 09:11 PM Re: What To Do? [Re: ChadTRG42]
Varget 7-08 Offline
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Registered: 04/04/10
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Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
All LC brass, same head stamp? What powder charges did you try? What scope and reticle are you using? Can you see a small aiming point with the scope you are running? (i.e.- is the scope you have able to see a small aiming spot capable of shooting small groups).


Yes sir. All 03 stamped. 22.7, 23, 23.3, 23.7 (Best), 24, 24.3. I didn't see any pressure signs at 24.3.

Vortex PST 2.5-10x44 EBR-1 reticle. I can see the red 1 MOA dot at 20 yards. I'm keeping the same cheek weld and wait about 30 seconds between shots.

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#5572258 - 01/29/15 09:23 PM Re: What To Do? [Re: Varget 7-08]
cabosandinh Offline
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Registered: 08/12/13
Posts: 1153
Loc: Dallas, TX
Sounds like a loose butt stock

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#5572681 - 01/30/15 07:37 AM Re: What To Do? [Re: Varget 7-08]
FiremanJG Offline
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Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 17893
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Good trigger control, and follow through?

Are you squeezing the trigger with slow steady pressure 90 degrees to the trigger? And do you continue to hold the trigger to the rear until you visualize where the bullet landed on paper? And only then do you hear the trigger reset.


Edited by FiremanJG (01/30/15 07:40 AM)
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#5572735 - 01/30/15 07:58 AM Re: What To Do? [Re: FiremanJG]
Varget 7-08 Offline
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Registered: 04/04/10
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Loc: SA / Helotes, TX
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Good trigger control, and follow through?

Are you squeezing the trigger with slow steady pressure 90 degrees to the trigger? And do you continue to hold the trigger to the rear until you visualize where the bullet landed on paper? And only then do you hear the trigger reset.


Yes indeed. This rifle has given me done trouble. I've loaded for a 260, 243, 300wm, 7mm-08, and 7 mag without nearly as much trouble.

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#5572753 - 01/30/15 08:05 AM Re: What To Do? [Re: Varget 7-08]
FiremanJG Offline
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Registered: 12/16/08
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Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Ok. I've learned to not take things for granted and ask everything.

Just double checking.
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#5572785 - 01/30/15 08:15 AM Re: What To Do? [Re: Varget 7-08]
ChadTRG42 Online   happy
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Registered: 09/16/09
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Loc: Lewisville, TX
Shooting groups is actually fairly difficult. There's a lot of consistency items you have to do from round to round. And an AR will amplify these difficulties. And going to 200 yards, even more. You have to drive an AR. Meaning, you have to hold it firm, hang on to it and control it throughout the recoil impulse. Large magnum rifles and AR's must be driven more so, than like a 243 Win shooting a light bullet with no recoil. From looking at your powder charges and knowing what a 223 in an AR likes, I think you will find another good load somewhere in the high 24's. An AR shoots best pushed fast (or near max), especially with a slow powder like Varget.

Also, when loading testing for an AR, I will load 6 or 7 test rounds. The idea is to test the load, not what issues the rifle may have. So, I will load 6 or 7 rounds to test. I load all 7 rounds in the mag. The first round is chambered by releasing the bolt forward. Sometimes an AR does not shoot the first round as the same POI as the other remaining rounds, so the first shot in the mag is generally not considered as part of the test group. Same thing on the last round. The bolt locks to the rear, and changes the recoil impulse up, which can easily effect the POI. So I make note of where the first and last rounds were, and may or may not consider them. If you loaded up a different round first in the mag, then loaded your test rounds in the mag, then the last round will still chamber and won't effect the recoil impulse and it can be considered part of the group.

I have a few shooters that can shoot very well at long range and compete and do very well in matches. But if you ask them to shoot a 5 shot group, they will have a fairly large group. I test a lot of rifles and ammo, and group shooting can be very picky sometimes. The small things you do when you are shooting can easily effect the outcome of the group, so you have to eliminate as many variables as possible that change up the group. size.
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#5572818 - 01/30/15 08:27 AM Re: What To Do? [Re: ChadTRG42]
FiremanJG Offline
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Registered: 12/16/08
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Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Terrific info, Chad!!!

Gas guns are an animal unto themselves and I've never developed a load for one. I will do exactly what you described when I dive into the process.

Varget 7-08,

One other trick I did two weeks ago (friend's bolt action 7 Rem mag) is have a tiny point of aim and I dialed up .3 Mil and right .3 Mil. POI never gets disturbed. I shot that rifle right handed (I'm a lefty) and stacked 5 180 gr. VLDs in a group with no paper between shots, one ragged hole. Course I had to do it slowly and think about it more so than if I were shooting it left handed.
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#5572832 - 01/30/15 08:33 AM Re: What To Do? [Re: ChadTRG42]
aggiehunter03 Online   content
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Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 2144
Loc: Mineral Wells, Texas
Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
Shooting groups is actually fairly difficult. There's a lot of consistency items you have to do from round to round. And an AR will amplify these difficulties. And going to 200 yards, even more. You have to drive an AR. Meaning, you have to hold it firm, hang on to it and control it throughout the recoil impulse. Large magnum rifles and AR's must be driven more so, than like a 243 Win shooting a light bullet with no recoil. From looking at your powder charges and knowing what a 223 in an AR likes, I think you will find another good load somewhere in the high 24's. An AR shoots best pushed fast (or near max), especially with a slow powder like Varget.


I've found the exact opposite to be true for my Rock River Predator Pursuit. If I push Max load on Varget it gets squirrely. I think I'm right in the middle of book load with a 55 Gameking and Varget (25.0 maybe?).

Also what gun are you using? What is the trigger like? If it is Milspec, take it out and throw it as far as you can behind your house and put in a Timney or another aftermarket. Milspec triggers are horrid and your groups will likely get cut in half with an aftermarket. You can also polish a milspec and add the JP Enterprises Trigger Spring Kit and it makes a world of difference as well. The long trigger pull will still be there but it will be smooth. If you have a factory two stage or something then it's probably not the trigger.
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Originally Posted By: Dan90210
I was looking at man bags online.


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#5572885 - 01/30/15 08:46 AM Re: What To Do? [Re: Varget 7-08]
ChadTRG42 Online   happy
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Registered: 09/16/09
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Loc: Lewisville, TX
^^^ Yes. Each rifle has it's own personality. But IMO, Varget with a 55 grain bullet would not be the powder I would use with a 55 grain. Varget is very slow burning for a 55 grain bullet. It's very aggressive. Really slow powders with a light bullet are more difficult to get to shoot well at the top end. If you picked a powder in the 4895, 8208, H335 area, you would get the max charges that shoot well.
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