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#5568094 - 01/27/15 07:02 PM $500 scope?
hookemhorns Offline
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Registered: 01/10/06
Posts: 625
Loc: Forney, TX
I don't have a high budget a this point but looking for a new scope for my 308. Is there something better for $500 than Nikon m308?
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#5568097 - 01/27/15 07:06 PM Re: $500 scope? [Re: hookemhorns]
Gravytrain Online   content
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 16881
Loc: Rowlett, Tx
I was looking at a Open box Minox ZA 5 HD 5-25x56 SF TAC from CameraLandNY for $549 yesterday

Just 4oz heavier than the Nikon, with a lot more range and an illuminated TAC reticle.

http://www.cameralandny.com/optics/minox.pl?page=minox_66475


Edited by Gravytrain (01/27/15 07:07 PM)

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#5568749 - 01/28/15 08:02 AM Re: $500 scope? [Re: hookemhorns]
dredd Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 868
Loc: Dallas / Fort Worth Area

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#5568790 - 01/28/15 08:29 AM Re: $500 scope? [Re: dredd]
Tff caribou Online   content
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Registered: 08/27/12
Posts: 2996
Loc: Watauga, TX
Originally Posted By: dredd


Wow. Buy this scope.
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#5569009 - 01/28/15 10:12 AM Re: $500 scope? [Re: hookemhorns]
nsmike Offline
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Registered: 05/02/12
Posts: 4214
Loc: MN
You'll are recommending a long range scope without asking how he intends to use it? Gravytrain how to you intend to use the scope. If, it's for hunting, where and how do you hunt? How far do you shoot? Is it strictly a for big game? Do you dial elevation and windage adjustments?
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#5569145 - 01/28/15 11:09 AM Re: $500 scope? [Re: hookemhorns]
603Country Online   content
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Registered: 07/03/12
Posts: 4867
Loc: Central Texas
I'm with nsmike. If the OP is a deer/pig/coyote hunter, he won't need turrets to twist, unless he just wants them. Inside 400 yards or so, turrets aren't needed. That said, I have a Vortex PST FFP on my number one hunting gun. Fine scope.

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#5569215 - 01/28/15 11:47 AM Re: $500 scope? [Re: hookemhorns]
Tff caribou Online   content
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Registered: 08/27/12
Posts: 2996
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The hs is the hunter series. I believe all the turrets are capped, and that's an MoA scope. Magnification range could be too large for him though.
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The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference. -George Washington

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#5569217 - 01/28/15 11:48 AM Re: $500 scope? [Re: 603Country]
jeffbird Online   content


Registered: 03/09/09
Posts: 1711
Originally Posted By: 603Country
Inside 400 yards or so, turrets aren't needed.


How are corrections made at 400 without an adjustable turret, or a reticle that allows precise holdovers and holdoffs?


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#5569297 - 01/28/15 12:28 PM Re: $500 scope? [Re: hookemhorns]
603Country Online   content
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Registered: 07/03/12
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Jeff, how precise do you need to be? Let's say you have a 270 with a 130 grainer going 3000 fps. Sight it in at 200 and you'll be down 7 inches at 300 and 20 inches at 400 (and 40 at 500). With my 220 and a 55 gr bullet at 3800, when on at 200, the drop is 5 inches at 300 and 15 at 400. And it's similar for my 223 with the 40 grain Nosler BT's. I don't need turrets or BDC dots for Deer, pigs, or coyotes out to 400, but that approach won't work for target shooting and prairie dogs.

I put the Viper PST FFP on my 260 for use out past 400, and I did shoot a pig at 500. Worked fine, but shooting at that range is rare for me. More common is like when I shot a nice 9 point this past season. I was minding my own business up in the blind when I saw movement way off to my right. Put the binocs up and wow, there was the big guy I'd been waiting for. Distance was about 175 yards. He was at a fast walk and about to go into heavy brush. I had seconds to make the shot or pass. I brought the 260 up (8 power is where I usually leave it), got the crosshairs right behind the shoulder and squeezed the trigger just an instant before he walked behind some brush. From the time I saw him to the time the bullet flew might have been 5 or 6 seconds. Maybe 7 or 8. But the point is that there was no time to be fiddling with turrets. And just like on that deer, one of the largest I've ever shot was at 268 yards on a pipeline ROW years ago. It all comes down to seconds sometimes. Many of the deer and varmints I've shot would have allowed time for turret twirling, so I'm not saying turrets are bad. I'm just saying that if the OP is a hunter who keeps his shots under 300 or 400 yards, turrets aren't really required. But for true precision (prairie dog head at 400), they would be good to have. I wouldn't be able to make the shot without turrets and there's still a significant chance that I'd miss even using the turrets.

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#5569342 - 01/28/15 12:47 PM Re: $500 scope? [Re: 603Country]
FiremanJG Offline
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Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 17893
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Whay about making precise (not inches and yards) holds by only using the reticle?
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#5569359 - 01/28/15 12:54 PM Re: $500 scope? [Re: 603Country]
jeffbird Online   content


Registered: 03/09/09
Posts: 1711
Originally Posted By: 603Country
Jeff, how precise do you need to be?


How far can one RELIABLY make a first round, cold bore shot on a paper plate not using a bench? That is my answer.


Originally Posted By: 603Country
Jeff, how precise do you need to be? Let's say you have a 270 with a 130 grainer going 3000 fps. Sight it in at 200 and you'll be down 7 inches at 300 and 20 inches at 400 (and 40 at 500). With my 220 and a 55 gr bullet at 3800, when on at 200, the drop is 5 inches at 300 and 15 at 400. And it's similar for my 223 with the 40 grain Nosler BT's. I don't need turrets or BDC dots for Deer, pigs, or coyotes out to 400, but that approach won't work for target shooting and prairie dogs.

I put the Viper PST FFP on my 260 for use out past 400, and I did shoot a pig at 500. Worked fine, but shooting at that range is rare for me. More common is like when I shot a nice 9 point this past season. I was minding my own business up in the blind when I saw movement way off to my right. Put the binocs up and wow, there was the big guy I'd been waiting for. Distance was about 175 yards. He was at a fast walk and about to go into heavy brush. I had seconds to make the shot or pass. I brought the 260 up (8 power is where I usually leave it), got the crosshairs right behind the shoulder and squeezed the trigger just an instant before he walked behind some brush. From the time I saw him to the time the bullet flew might have been 5 or 6 seconds. Maybe 7 or 8. But the point is that there was no time to be fiddling with turrets. And just like on that deer, one of the largest I've ever shot was at 268 yards on a pipeline ROW years ago. It all comes down to seconds sometimes. Many of the deer and varmints I've shot would have allowed time for turret twirling, so I'm not saying turrets are bad. I'm just saying that if the OP is a hunter who keeps his shots under 300 or 400 yards, turrets aren't really required. But for true precision (prairie dog head at 400), they would be good to have. I wouldn't be able to make the shot without turrets and there's still a significant chance that I'd miss even using the turrets.




Better shot placement is always better.

Relying on maximum point blank range and guesswork is more likely to produce a miss, or worse wound the animal.

With respect to your example, I just ran a 270 with 130 grain Nosler Partition at 3,000 fps. Drop is 6.25 MOA or 26" at 400 yards. Even with the higher bc Berger bullet, drop is still 6 MOA or 24.5".

So trying to put this politely, that sounds like a miss, or worse shot off leg, if the assumption was 20". Also, how would one correct for even 20" or 26" of drop without adjustable turrets or an appropriate reticle? How would a correction for 10 mph of wind be made and added to the elevation correction? Wind would be 1.75 MOA = 7" of windage correction required.

Add in that good hunting type ammo is probably about 1 MOA under good conditions, but more like double that under field conditions in the cold with a tired shooter with stiff muscles and tired eyes. All of the sudden the typical 270 with typical hunting ammo and a 3x9 hunting scope with duplex reticle would be relying on guesswork and luck to hit a deer at 400 yards. For the animal's sake, I strive for better.

Eliminating as much guesswork as possible reduces the chance of a wounding and ups the likelihood of DRT.

FJG, obviously we both know that the right reticles can work very well, which is why I included it in my post. Once holding over for elevation, then also holding for wind becomes challenging unless one is using a Horus or similar reticle.

So, dialing elevation, and then holding wind on the horizontal axis is my usual preference.



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#5569500 - 01/28/15 02:17 PM Re: $500 scope? [Re: nsmike]
Gravytrain Online   content
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 16881
Loc: Rowlett, Tx
Originally Posted By: nsmike
You'll are recommending a long range scope without asking how he intends to use it? Gravytrain how to you intend to use the scope. If, it's for hunting, where and how do you hunt? How far do you shoot? Is it strictly a for big game? Do you dial elevation and windage adjustments?


Your right, it depends most on how he's going to use.

Since he settled in on 4-16, I figured he had that figured out and 5-25 would
be better in most cases. But in hunting under 75 yards or so, you really do need a decent low end.
The difference between 3x and 5x is vast when the targets are to close.

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#5569551 - 01/28/15 02:46 PM Re: $500 scope? [Re: hookemhorns]
Nogalus Prairie Online   content
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Registered: 11/22/10
Posts: 19239
Loc: Corsicana
Always an interesting debate.

My .270 Win., 270 WSM, .300 Win. Mag., and .300 WSM are all sighted in 3" high at 100 yards. Happily, with the loads I use in each they have very similar ballistics out to 400 yards. So much so that I can hold dead on anywhere from 0 to 300 and 16-18" high at 400 and kill any animal with the standard heart/lung shot I prefer.

Is it as precise as dialing and/or using a busy reticle? No. But no animal I kill would be any deader had I used a more complex scope.

But why not use the more complex scopes anyway and gain some precision? It's a fair question. My reasons:

1)It takes time to dial. It takes time to pick out the proper reticle in a "busy" scope. A few seconds can mean the difference between getting an animal or not.

2)Weight/ergonomics. All else being equal, a standard scope is lighter and much less cumbersome-both of which are important to me.

I absolutely see the requirements of the precision provided by larger complex scopes at ranges beyond 400 yards. For normal hunting ranges, the disadvantages outweigh the advantages for me.

As for power, I used to think 3-9x is plenty. But, thanks to advancements in design, variables up to 14/16x are now both lighter and trimmer than they used to be. I will soon be replacing an older Leupold 36mm 2.5-8x with a new 40mm 4.5-14x on my .300 WSM. An ever-so-slightly larger profile and about 3 more ounces. Well worth it for the added magnification.


Edited by Nogalus Prairie (01/28/15 02:49 PM)
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That's the way I hunt don't know many that do. If a deer gets buy me I will try to run him down. Ive killed a bunch that way.



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#5569561 - 01/28/15 02:50 PM Re: $500 scope? [Re: jeffbird]
FiremanJG Offline
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Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 17893
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Originally Posted By: jeffbird


So, dialing elevation, and then holding wind on the horizontal axis is my usual preference.


As is mine. I do practice holding both for speed's sake. But if I have time to range I have time to dial.
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#5569618 - 01/28/15 03:27 PM Re: $500 scope? [Re: Gravytrain]
nsmike Offline
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Registered: 05/02/12
Posts: 4214
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Gravytrain
Originally Posted By: nsmike
You'll are recommending a long range scope without asking how he intends to use it? Gravytrain how to you intend to use the scope. If, it's for hunting, where and how do you hunt? How far do you shoot? Is it strictly a for big game? Do you dial elevation and windage adjustments?


Your right, it depends most on how he's going to use.

Since he settled in on 4-16, I figured he had that figured out and 5-25 would
be better in most cases. But in hunting under 75 yards or so, you really do need a decent low end.
The difference between 3x and 5x is vast when the targets are to close.

For some one looking for advice I like to prequalify my answer and make sure I'm anwering the right question. I'm not willing to assume that an M308 is correct without asking. An m308 might be workable but if you assume it's correct you might then make a recommendation that doesn't work. Like you mentioned 4x might work OK at shorter range and 6x not at all. It could be that a 2x10 is the perfect answer, you just don't know, without asking.
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