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#5555229 - 01/21/15 07:33 AM Steady to wing, shot and fall
bill oxner Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 32705
Loc: Richmond

I was asked for advice in this area. This is the best I can give. Let's have your input.


"In NSTRA the handler shoots over hid dog's points. I've seen maybe 2 in 15 years that were steady. It's a long and difficult road for most dogs, and you can't do it with a gun in your hand. It's difficult to keep them steady until you flush with an un-broke dog when you have a gun in your hand. I've seen several people try. It's not easy. Most pups end up steady to wing, shot and fall during the breaking process. An old expression of mine is that they, "Come un-broke," when you start shooting birds over them and letting them retrieve."
_________________________
Quail hunting is like walking into, and out of a beautiful painting all day long. Gene Hill




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#5555270 - 01/21/15 07:52 AM Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: bill oxner]
CSF Offline
Extreme Tracker

Registered: 09/11/09
Posts: 4034
Loc: Houston,TX
I struggle with this with my 3yr old GSP in the field.

During training, she is fairly steady to the gun, but on wild birds, if a shot is taken she breaks to the bird. That being said, her breaking has resulted in her retrieving downed birds I thought I missed. One very memorable rooster retrieve in South Dakota earlier this season, longest retrieve she's ever made. So I guess I'm torn on whether to invest more time on training her to be steady or invest more time on getting better at shooting grin
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#5556688 - 01/21/15 06:45 PM Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: CSF]
bobcat1 Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 07/22/07
Posts: 1498
Loc: Sanger, Texas
All of my trial dogs were steady until I released them. It is a lot of repetition. At first you have to have an iron clad whoa built in. Again repetition. I begin teaching whoa on a barrel on it's side as young pups. I would style them up and then rock the barrel and repeat whoa if they moved. It doesn't take much rocking. When they had that down I would move to the ground. I would make them stand at whoa outside their pens on whoa (on a chain of course) morning and night while I cleaned their pens, changed their water and fed them. When I was finished I would release the chain and make them stay on whoa until I said alright and tapped them on the back of the head. The second command was the release. That way if I was at a trial and one of my "friends" said alright my dog would stand there until the tap on the back of the head actually released them.

It worked for not only standing until shot, fall and release but also on backing. Pretty soon it became automatic. As a result my dogs looked like they were pointing when the whoa command was given. You never want a dog to looked cowed down like he or she was beaten when standing. Just my way of doing it.

If they ever broke I would pick them up by the collar and tail and return them to the original spot and make them stand there while another dog got the retrieve and eventual head off the bird.
_________________________
Bobby Barnett


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#5556725 - 01/21/15 07:05 PM Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: bill oxner]
colt45 Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 5407
Loc: bastrop county
that tap on the head, great idea. when training buggy horse's, I would use the command "bit" that was the giddy up, when in crowds, someone invariably will say giddy up, my horses' never moved till I have the "bit" command
_________________________
hold on Newt, we got a runaway

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#5556749 - 01/21/15 07:22 PM Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: colt45]
bobcat1 Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 07/22/07
Posts: 1498
Loc: Sanger, Texas
Originally Posted By: colt45
that tap on the head, great idea. when training buggy horse's, I would use the command "bit" that was the giddy up, when in crowds, someone invariably will say giddy up, my horses' never moved till I have the "bit" command
up
_________________________
Bobby Barnett


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#5557084 - 01/21/15 10:33 PM Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: bill oxner]
shooterwalter Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 09/05/12
Posts: 1544
Loc: Poetry, Texas Kaufman County 8...
Great expression Bill "Come un-broke," when you start shooting birds over them and letting them retrieve."

very true words
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#5557322 - 01/22/15 06:32 AM Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: CSF]
Nogalus Prairie Online   content
THF Celebrity

Registered: 11/22/10
Posts: 19308
Loc: Corsicana
Originally Posted By: CSF
I struggle with this with my 3yr old GSP in the field.

During training, she is fairly steady to the gun, but on wild birds, if a shot is taken she breaks to the bird. That being said, her breaking has resulted in her retrieving downed birds I thought I missed. One very memorable rooster retrieve in South Dakota earlier this season, longest retrieve she's ever made. So I guess I'm torn on whether to invest more time on training her to be steady or invest more time on getting better at shooting grin


Jenny has zero formal training. She is steady through the shot. I don't care what she does after that since she is looking for the bird. I suppose field trialers care because it's a safety issue? IDK.
_________________________
Originally Posted By: REALKILLER
That's the way I hunt don't know many that do. If a deer gets buy me I will try to run him down. Ive killed a bunch that way.



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#5557466 - 01/22/15 07:51 AM Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: bill oxner]
CinchMan Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 10/11/09
Posts: 1341
Loc: Country Past The City Limit Si...
I'm a fan of steady to wing and shot, but not fall. After the shot I'd rather have my dog hustling to the downed bird. Especially since wild birds will hit the ground running.
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Say When.....

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#5557753 - 01/22/15 09:38 AM Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: bill oxner]
MS1454 Offline
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2705
Loc: Houston/Sealy
I am a fan of wing shot and fall for safety reasons and so the dog can mark multiple birds. That last part rarely happens though.
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Originally Posted By: Fooshman
I'll take a Black Female every time.


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#5557771 - 01/22/15 09:45 AM Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: CinchMan]
reeltexan Offline
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 01/30/07
Posts: 2302
Loc: Ovilla - TEXAS
Originally Posted By: CinchMan
I'm a fan of steady to wing and shot, but not fall. After the shot I'd rather have my dog hustling to the downed bird. Especially since wild birds will hit the ground running.


I found this to be most to my advantage in hunting.
I want the dog steady until I pull the trigger. After that, I've seen them chase down wounded birds for as far away as 100 yards or more.
Sometimes the bird is hit hard enough that it flies quite a distance then falls dead.

Saves me a lot of walking if they can follow the bird down.
I'm all for that, but I don't trial these dogs.
_________________________


"Count that day lost whose low, descending sun
Is not, in part, obscured by powder from my gun"
B. Spiller

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#5557821 - 01/22/15 10:09 AM Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: bill oxner]
bill oxner Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 32705
Loc: Richmond
This is a little hijack of my own thread, but I'm pretty sure a dog can follow the scent of a flying bird, maybe even tell if its wounded or not.
_________________________
Quail hunting is like walking into, and out of a beautiful painting all day long. Gene Hill




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#5557840 - 01/22/15 10:17 AM Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: bill oxner]
kindall Offline


Registered: 08/01/09
Posts: 3769
Loc: Spring, Tx
I would rather mine be steady till sent, and did work on it at first. I just didn't follow through when hunting season started.
_________________________

Shopping with your husband is like hunting with the game warden.
Experience is what you get, when you didn't get what you wanted.



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#5558147 - 01/22/15 12:31 PM Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: bill oxner]
reeltexan Offline
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 01/30/07
Posts: 2302
Loc: Ovilla - TEXAS
Originally Posted By: bill oxner
This is a little hijack of my own thread, but I'm pretty sure a dog can follow the scent of a flying bird, maybe even tell if its wounded or not.


That could be, never thought of it.
I do know for sure that she'll follow them into the next county if she has an eye on 'em.
_________________________


"Count that day lost whose low, descending sun
Is not, in part, obscured by powder from my gun"
B. Spiller

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#5558282 - 01/22/15 01:47 PM Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: CinchMan]
Pointer Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 1450
Loc: Bishop, Texas
Originally Posted By: CinchMan
I'm a fan of steady to wing and shot, but not fall. After the shot I'd rather have my dog hustling to the downed bird. Especially since wild birds will hit the ground running.


Wild birds, pen raised birds, it doesn't matter. They will all crawl or run off even if they can't fly. I see and hear it all the time. "That bird fell dead, I know it is right here." and we'll find it 30 or 40 feet or more away.
I don't know whether it is because most people prefer to shoot light gauge guns on quail, but a good 90% of the birds I take from a dogs mouth are alive.

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#5558536 - 01/22/15 03:38 PM Re: Steady to wing, shot and fall [Re: Pointer]
CCBIRDDOGMAN Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 9299
Loc: CEDAR CREEK LAKE
Originally Posted By: Pointer
Originally Posted By: CinchMan
I'm a fan of steady to wing and shot, but not fall. After the shot I'd rather have my dog hustling to the downed bird. Especially since wild birds will hit the ground running.


Wild birds, pen raised birds, it doesn't matter. They will all crawl or run off even if they can't fly. I see and hear it all the time. "That bird fell dead, I know it is right here." and we'll find it 30 or 40 feet or more away.
I don't know whether it is because most people prefer to shoot light gauge guns on quail, but a good 90% of the birds I take from a dogs mouth are alive.


That why we shoot high brass 7 1/2's. I hate losing birds that I hit. I will look for 20 minutes and sometimes double back by later.
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