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#5543097 - 01/14/15 04:32 PM Ideal Red Sheep
Kobus Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 09/16/14
Posts: 267
Loc: Kerrville/Del Rio
What is your idea of looks wise of an ideal red sheep. I know that they are a naturally occurring hybrid in Iran with Armenian Mouflon and Transcaspian Urial.
As a line, sometimes they show traits of one parent over the other.

Feel free to post some pictures of Red sheep either alive or taken that you think are ideal and fit your picture of them!

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#5543912 - 01/14/15 10:32 PM Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus]
BBD84 Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 11/15/11
Posts: 6817
Loc: Houston & Buffalo
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#5544110 - 01/15/15 06:40 AM Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus]
Elkhunter49 Online   content
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 06/21/11
Posts: 3275
Loc: Oak Harbor, Slidell La
This would work for me.

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#5544196 - 01/15/15 07:47 AM Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus]
okierifleman Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 04/14/12
Posts: 386
Loc: Houston
This one works for me

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#5544267 - 01/15/15 08:18 AM Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: okierifleman]
Elkhunter49 Online   content
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Registered: 06/21/11
Posts: 3275
Loc: Oak Harbor, Slidell La
Very Nice!!!
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#5544481 - 01/15/15 10:00 AM Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus]
Bowman24 Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 176
how big was each of your sheep that are pictured?

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#5544493 - 01/15/15 10:05 AM Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus]
TonyinVA Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 03/24/14
Posts: 1857
Loc: Virginia, USA


Here is one that has a lot of Urial in his pedigree


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#5545173 - 01/15/15 03:35 PM Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus]
BBD84 Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 11/15/11
Posts: 6817
Loc: Houston & Buffalo
Red sheep should show more mouflon characteristics than urial IMO. They should have a patch and not urial type horns. My ram was right at 37" both sides and curremtly the all time number 2 archery red sheep ever taken for TGR. They are much more strict now on the traits and colors to get into each catagory. Last sheep pictured to me should be called a urial cross not a red sheep. The rams elkhunter posted show more afgan urial traits than red sheep and a red sheeps horns should go down not back behind there head.
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#5545386 - 01/15/15 05:05 PM Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus]
Bowman24 Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 176
From all the research that we have done it's somewhat the opposite. Being an Armenian Mouflon (which has the more "halo" arched back frame) and Urial Hybrid, the ones that Elk Hunter posted is the Classic Red Sheep look. We visited with the Hunting Consortium about their Red Sheep in Iran and this is the Classic look. Go to their website and see Jim Shockey's Ram, it's the exact form of Elk Hunters photos. They told me the ones with the more Mouflon characteristics are from Texan's crossing European Mouflon with Red Sheep and sometimes Urials.
TonyinVA is definitely more of an Afghan type which is also a cross.

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#5545389 - 01/15/15 05:07 PM Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus]
Bowman24 Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 176
Please let me add that they are all very fine trophies and congrats to you all!

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#5545480 - 01/15/15 05:38 PM Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Bowman24]
sparrish8 Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 01/13/13
Posts: 1200
Originally Posted By: Bowman24
From all the research that we have done it's somewhat the opposite. Being an Armenian Mouflon (which has the more "halo" arched back frame) and Urial Hybrid, the ones that Elk Hunter posted is the Classic Red Sheep look. We visited with the Hunting Consortium about their Red Sheep in Iran and this is the Classic look. Go to their website and see Jim Shockey's Ram, it's the exact form of Elk Hunters photos. They told me the ones with the more Mouflon characteristics are from Texan's crossing European Mouflon with Red Sheep and sometimes Urials.
TonyinVA is definitely more of an Afghan type which is also a cross.


This debate never seems to die

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#5545950 - 01/15/15 09:17 PM Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus]
TonyinVA Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 03/24/14
Posts: 1857
Loc: Virginia, USA
the debate always goes on....and everyone has an opinion...just like everyone has a azzhole

FROM AN EARLIER POST...JUST MY OPINION

A Red Sheep is a naturally occurring hybrid in the wild between a Transcaspian Urial X Armenian Mouflon. So given it is a hybrid, I suspect that the offspring may favor one parent or the other resulting in some variation in how a wild Red Sheep might look.

Now what happens with this first generation Red Sheep? Does he or she say, "Hey, I'm a Red Sheep so I'm only going to stay/breed with other Red Sheep." or is that first generation Red Sheep going to end up as part of the ewes herd. I suspect it's the later. That means that the first generation Red sheep is going to mate with a higher probability with either a Transcaspian Urial or an Armenian Mouflon than another Red Sheep. So what is this second generation sheep? It's not a Transcaspian and it is not an Armenian. Is it a Red Sheep or is it a Red Sheep hybrid? I suspect that if you were hunting Red Sheep in their native range the guides and record book would classify it as a Red Sheep.

Now we come to Texas where ranchers are breeding Red Sheep...making their own Transcaspian Urial x Armenian Mouflon hybrids. Like in the wild I suspect that the off spring may have characteristics that favor one parent....probably the horns will either sweep back like an Armenian or flair out and curve/curl upward like a Transcaspian. And depending on what the rancher likes...that's the look he will breed for. So what is the correct look for a Red Sheep?

Now after breeding Red Sheep x Red Sheep the rancher may want to throw a Transcaspian Urial in with his Red Sheep ewes to get better body size or longer/heavier horns. What does he have now....is it still a Red Sheep or is it a Red Sheep hybrid?

In the wild the wild it would seem that any hybrid that is part Transcaspian and part Armenian would be a Red Sheep. But what about in Texas where ranchers manipulate the breeding? Does the definition of a Texas Red Sheep need to be defined as 50% Transcaspian Urial and 50% Armenian Mouflon.....and if the Red Sheep is breed back to say a Transcaspian Urial it's now a Red Sheep Hybrid?

Seems like there is a can of worms here if one wanted to open it.


Edited by TonyinVA (01/15/15 09:23 PM)

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#5546034 - 01/15/15 09:57 PM Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus]
Kobus Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 09/16/14
Posts: 267
Loc: Kerrville/Del Rio
I don't mind the debate smile
I find it quite interesting.

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#5546062 - 01/15/15 10:12 PM Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Bowman24]
TonyinVA Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 03/24/14
Posts: 1857
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: Bowman24
Please let me add that they are all very fine trophies and congrats to you all!


To be clear..that is not me in the pic...I wish it was my ram. And as I said, It has a lot of Urial in it's pedigree....and it was Transcaspian Urial NOT Afghan Urial in the pedigree.


Edited by TonyinVA (01/15/15 10:14 PM)

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#5546134 - 01/15/15 11:27 PM Re: Ideal Red Sheep [Re: Kobus]
nsmike Offline
Extreme Tracker

Registered: 05/02/12
Posts: 4219
Loc: MN
I don't get the argument Red Sheep are a cross with various degrees of intergrade. Even in Iran they vary and tend more towards Armenian Mouflon closer to their range and more towards Urial closer to their range. They're all Red Sheep you just have to decide which look you like. I do think that; it's one animal that that you really need to see pictures of before the hunt.
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