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#5507883 - 12/30/14 01:06 AM Blackcloud and ported chokes
_Scooter_ Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 1661
Loc: NoDux, Texas
I have read in a few places that you shouldn't use Blackcloud in a ported choke because the wad fins can catch on the holes and cause issues like irregular patterns all the way up to the barrel blowing up from an obstruction.

There is no warning on the box, or the choke that says DO NOT USE IN PORTED CHOKE TUBES/DO NOT USE BLACKCLOUD IN THIS CHOKE... which if they were truly dangerous I'd expect to see it. I shoot a Kick's HF MOD in my gun and I did use about half a box of BC the last day of the first split. My gun seemed to have no issues with killing ducks and I had no wads get stuck in the barrel- obviously.

I have really been giving it lots of thought and I just cannot wrap my head around why this rumor seems to be so popular. Does anybody have any actual guidance/warnings from Federal or any choke maker? If so, please post a link for me... I have emailed Kick's but they have not gotten back to me yet.

When I put my redneck physics degree thinking cap on... there's just no way at 1450fps a little piece of plastic is going to lodge itself so bad in those diagonally cut ports the last 1" of the tube and cause a barrel obstruction. If it was that serious, wouldn't that wad stick to the gas ports in any gas-op semi auto the same way? Or the ported barrel of my Mossberg 835? My guess is the worst that could happen is that some tiny piece of plastic gets cut off and expelled out the ports.

By the way... I have found wads from blackclouds and measured it up. By the time the "fins" would possibly catch on the ports of my Kick's HF, the open end of the shot cup is already protruding 1/16" from the end of the tube so the whole "irregular pattern" deal seems like it is just a bunch of hogwash.

Am I right? Or am I crazy? Somebody on here has got to have some factual info for me. confused2


Edited by _Scooter_ (12/30/14 01:07 AM)
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#5508096 - 12/30/14 08:00 AM Re: Blackcloud and ported chokes [Re: _Scooter_]
Hopedale Online   content
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 09/12/07
Posts: 5853
Loc: Central Texas
I think all you're going to get from Kicks is the recommendation they already post on their web-site:

"High Flyer chokes are not recommended for use with Federal Black Cloud ammunition. For those shells, you will need our Vortex choke tube. You can find them here."

http://www.kicks-ind.com/category/highflyer.html
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#5508123 - 12/30/14 08:10 AM Re: Blackcloud and ported chokes [Re: _Scooter_]
Taylor Everett Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 09/10/10
Posts: 127
Loc: Wise Co, Tx
Patternmaster chokes say not to shoot a shell with a flight control wad.

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#5508293 - 12/30/14 09:38 AM Re: Blackcloud and ported chokes [Re: _Scooter_]
WatersFowler Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 08/19/12
Posts: 207
Loc: Melissa, TX
I shoot the same choke in my Extrema 2. I use the cheap shells. Really like the Kent Faststeel. Ducks don't seem to like the combo as most of them fall from the sky. I'm sure the high$ shells have some advantages, but I can't seem to get past the part where ducks fall from the sky with the cheaper shells. No worries about warnings....just saying.... up
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#5508331 - 12/30/14 09:55 AM Re: Blackcloud and ported chokes [Re: Hopedale]
_Scooter_ Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 1661
Loc: NoDux, Texas
Originally Posted By: Hopedale
I think all you're going to get from Kicks is the recommendation they already post on their web-site:

"High Flyer chokes are not recommended for use with Federal Black Cloud ammunition. For those shells, you will need our Vortex choke tube. You can find them here."

http://www.kicks-ind.com/category/highflyer.html


It sounds like more of an advertisement than a warning. confused

And I use Blackcloud because I like it. I really like it. Plus I grabbed four boxes of 3" 1 1/4oz #3's @ $19.99/box at academy during the first split. That's the same price as the Drylok Super Steel I was using and having success with. I am a firm believer in Blackcloud ammo, but I am in no way saying it's the best. It is just a real solid performer for me out of both duck guns and when I can get it at $20 per box I buy it. Now, if only 3" Hevi Metal #4's were $20/box I'd never look back...
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#5508383 - 12/30/14 10:20 AM Re: Blackcloud and ported chokes [Re: _Scooter_]
WatersFowler Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 08/19/12
Posts: 207
Loc: Melissa, TX
Glad you got a good deal on the BC. If I was shooting that tube (which I am) and that ammo, I'd change something. If that is not a warning I don't know what one is. When a manufacturer says they don't recommend something popular (BC) to be used with their product, it is usually because they have multiple cases where failure occurred. I wouldn't risk that combo when there are other options, even with my physics degree..... cheers
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#5508611 - 12/30/14 12:20 PM Re: Blackcloud and ported chokes [Re: _Scooter_]
NTX RAIDER Online   content
Woodsman

Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 245
Loc: Frisco, TX
Not to highjack the thread, but has anyone had issues with Hypersonics out of ported choke tube as well?

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#5508713 - 12/30/14 01:15 PM Re: Blackcloud and ported chokes [Re: NTX RAIDER]
Barny Topwater Offline
red bone Bob

Registered: 11/22/09
Posts: 2441
Loc: New Braunfels TX USA
Originally Posted By: NTX RAIDER
Not to highjack the thread, but has anyone had issues with Hypersonics out of ported choke tube as well?

My Pattern Master says not to shoot anything that fast through it confused2
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#5508833 - 12/30/14 02:23 PM Re: Blackcloud and ported chokes [Re: _Scooter_]
nacgoat08 Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 419
Loc: Miserableplex, Texas
I'm shooting a Patternmaster now, but I used to shot a Kicks High Flyer before and all I used was Federal Powershok or the blue box. I patterned my shotgun out to 60 yards with that Patternmaster and was blown away with the results and hammered birds with that combo all last year. I picked up some of BC on a smoking deal a few months ago and never really paid much attention to shooting them through my extended ported chokes. But come to think of it, this past weekend was the second time I've really hunted with the BC and shot almost an entire box before shooting my limit Saturday. I had not been that frustrated in a longggg time and not blaming it solely on the choke/loads. I'm sure a lot of it was the Indian, not the arrow but after reading your comment about irregular patterns that might explain something....Food for thought I guess.
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#5508902 - 12/30/14 03:00 PM Re: Blackcloud and ported chokes [Re: _Scooter_]
Marcstar Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 11/06/06
Posts: 8544
Loc: Temple, TX
I skipped replies...it's not the ports it's the wad strippers that some chokes like pattern master use that you should not use.

"WILL BLACK CLOUD WORK WITH MY AFTERMARKET CHOKE?

Black Cloud FS Steel® uses the proprietary FLITECONTROL® wad-designed to leave the barrel with the shot to keep your pattern tight and get to the ducks quicker. For maximum performance we recommend using standard, factory chokes that do not strip the wad or reduce muzzle pressure. We are currently working with popular choke companies on new tubes specially designed for Black Cloud."
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Originally Posted By: wal1809


Dear Lord please bullwhip me for saying this but I agree, Marcstar is in the lead. Please nobody use this as a quote!!!

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#5509711 - 12/30/14 09:10 PM Re: Blackcloud and ported chokes [Re: _Scooter_]
_Scooter_ Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 1661
Loc: NoDux, Texas
UPDATE:

I cut open a BC shell and a standard steel load with a standard 2 piece (petal opening) wad to do some experimenting with the wads and choke tubes on my workbench. Here's what I found...

The BC wad does pass through the Kick's choke, and is very unlikely to hang up... but there is definitely some very tiny amounts of plastic shaving off in the ports when I used a push rod to get the wad through the choke tube. When examined closely after the first pass, the wad shows almost rifle-like shallow scratches on the outside of the wad that run the entire length of the wad. Also, with the Kick's HF MOD I had to use a great deal more pressure to get the wad to pop out the end when compared to pushing it through my Factory IMP CYL tube. I then pushed it through my factory MOD and it was a little easier- but not much different when compared to the Kick's.

Then I tested the standard wad... Same plastic shavings, same scratches, but since the standard wad had the petals cut from the front instead of the rear, the pressure required to force it through both the Kick's and factory MOD chokes was would noticeably less because the petals were able to crunch down a bit in the tube like they are designed to do.

What does this mean?

Well, not much can be learned from this particular test. Given the crude manner of the experiment, neither wad was actually subjected to the amount of force generated when the powder is burned and the payload is rocketed through the bore at 1450fps, so I was not able to actually see what both wads look like when the gas seals on the ends are fully expanded... or if that is going to cause the forward facing BC wad tabs to "stick out" during the time it is still in the barrel. I don't see how it could because the gas seal is formed behind them and they are the same thickness as the shot cup and they sit flush with the rest of the shot cup. I don't think there's any possibility they can expand until the wad is completely out of the barrel and the shot has exited the wad. I'd actually LOVE for someone to shoot some high speed camera video of the Payload exiting the barrel so we can all bear witness to the Flight Control wad theory.

Will I shoot it through my Kick's choke again??? Nah, probably not since it won't make any difference in patterning Blackcloud, and Kick's doesn't "recommend" it.

What did I learn? The solid facts I have taken away from this little test are that if you're shooting a MOD choke you are probably building some more pressure in the barrel and gaining a little velocity over shooting an IMP CYL choke. That is, unless the gas expansion has already maxed out in the barrel before the wad exits the choke. I also came to a conclusion that based on that fact alone, my previously held belief of "It doesn't matter what choke you use with BC, it will pattern the same" is simply not true since different chokes will affect muzzle velocity a great deal. You may not be able to constrict the actual shot inside the shot cup like a standard wad can do, but you can change how much pressure you build behind it by changing constriction.


Edited by _Scooter_ (12/30/14 09:16 PM)
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#5509779 - 12/30/14 09:40 PM Re: Blackcloud and ported chokes [Re: _Scooter_]
#Hayraker Offline
Chihuahua

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 11669
Loc: Texas
TLTR
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#5509907 - 12/30/14 11:19 PM Re: Blackcloud and ported chokes [Re: #Hayraker]
wal1809 Online   content
THF Celebrity

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 10847
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: Hayraker
TLTR


roflmao
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#5510175 - 12/31/14 08:25 AM Re: Blackcloud and ported chokes [Re: _Scooter_]
garrett Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 01/19/06
Posts: 10287
Blackcloud sucks, use better ammo
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#5510180 - 12/31/14 08:29 AM Re: Blackcloud and ported chokes [Re: _Scooter_]
Ramball36 Online   content


Registered: 05/11/09
Posts: 8959
Loc: McKinney
There's some next level overthinking goin on up in hurruh
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