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#5502326 - 12/27/14 11:43 AM Creedmoore OCW Test
j-thames Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 11/10/10
Posts: 108
Loc: Stephenville
Loaded my first batch of reloads for my new 6.5 Creedmoore yesterday. Didn't feel like driving to the range to shoot a ladder so I decided to try the OCW method at 100 yards. Not 100% sure what to make of it and would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions.
Load:
Once fired Hornady brass (bumped shoulder back .002 with Hornady match FL bushing die)
140 Amax Seated to 2.835 (kissing the lands)
WLR primer
H4350: 41.4 - 42.9 in .3 increments

I fired these round robin beginning with A in the top left if the image was rotated clockwise. (I can't for the life of me figure out how to make it rotate)

I also plotted the center points relative to the point of aim.


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#5502367 - 12/27/14 12:10 PM Re: Creedmoore OCW Test [Re: j-thames]
FiremanJG Offline
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Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 17893
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
I pick load B. I do ladder tests and am most concerned with vertical dispertion. Sometimes horizontal dispersion is poor trigger control. I am not accusing you of it, just bringing it up.

I can't read the velocities. Can you type them out for each load? Often your best load will have the lowest ES.
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#5502405 - 12/27/14 12:35 PM Re: Creedmoore OCW Test [Re: j-thames]
j-thames Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 11/10/10
Posts: 108
Loc: Stephenville
Thanks!
It is very likely trigger control. I have no experience with precision shooting. I always thought in minute of deer but recently the idea of tiny groups, hitting things along way off and expensive rifles have began to intrigue me. I was pretty happy that they were all under an inch. Lol.

The velocity data doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

A. 41.4g: 2849,2777,2772 (avg: 2799, es: 77)
B. 41.7g: 2969,2830,2867 (avg: 2888, es 139)
C. 42g: 2873,2904,2886 (avg: 2887, es: 31)
D. 42.3g: 2812,2892,2898 (avg: 2867, es: 86)
E. 42.6g: 2943,2911,2892 (avg: 2915, es: 51)
F. 42.9g: 2936,2917,2949 (avg: 2934, es: 32)

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#5502414 - 12/27/14 12:42 PM Re: Creedmoore OCW Test [Re: j-thames]
FiremanJG Offline
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Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 17893
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Something must be up with the chronograph or something in your loads. My worst test load for the 6.5 Creedmoor had an ES of 18 fps for five shots. The best shooting load that I kept has an ES of 13 fps for five shots. Thats not to say I'm the world's best handloader that is more the behavior of the Creedmoor.

Fouled barrel?
Flash holes deburred?
Carefully weighed every charge?
Lighting conditions the same throughout load testing?
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#5502515 - 12/27/14 01:35 PM Re: Creedmoore OCW Test [Re: j-thames]
ChadTRG42 Online   happy
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 9397
Loc: Lewisville, TX
From what I know on the CM and looking at your target, you have 2 sweet spots. Load A at 41.4 and Load E at 42.6. You groups will string up/down or side/side when approaching or leaving an accuracy node (if you shoot the groups correctly). I think you have a flier on both A and E groups. Test those 2 groups at 200 yards to know for sure. The chrono speeds don't make sense.

I like using this target b/c it shows a perfect text book load work up about groups. This was shot at 300 yards. Load A is in the center, Load B low left, Load C top left, and Load D top right. You can see how the groups are open for A and B. Load C strings the group up and down, which told me Load D should be good. I shot Load D, and there you go, 5 rounds sub inch at 300 yards.

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#5502568 - 12/27/14 01:58 PM Re: Creedmoore OCW Test [Re: j-thames]
papa45 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 472
Loc: Arlington
I would agree with FiremanJG that B appears to be your best load, but for a slightly different reason. The objective of the OCW test is to find a node where variations in velocity don't change your POI. I see very little vertical change from A to B to C. That's what you're looking for and B is your midpoint. For now, we'll blame horizontal spread on trigger control. Even within B, you have a large ES, but minimal vertical spread; that's good.

The high ES's could be caused by lots of different things, as FiremanJG suggested, but the beauty of the OCW and the Ladder tests is that they help minimize their effects.

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#5502612 - 12/27/14 02:20 PM Re: Creedmoore OCW Test [Re: ChadTRG42]
RDub270 Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 204
Loc: Fort Worth
[quote=ChadTRG42]...Load A is in the center, Load B low left, Load C top left, and Load D top right. You can see how the groups are open for A and B. Load C strings the group up and down, which told me Load D should be good. I shot Load D, and there you go, 5 rounds sub inch at 300 yards.
quote]

How did you come to the conclusion that Load D should be good, before Load D was loaded and shot down range?

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#5502663 - 12/27/14 02:46 PM Re: Creedmoore OCW Test [Re: papa45]
FiremanJG Offline
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Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 17893
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Originally Posted By: papa45
I would agree with FiremanJG that B appears to be your best load, but for a slightly different reason. The objective of the OCW test is to find a node where variations in velocity don't change your POI. I see very little vertical change from A to B to C. That's what you're looking for and B is your midpoint. For now, we'll blame horizontal spread on trigger control. Even within B, you have a large ES, but minimal vertical spread; that's good.

The high ES's could be caused by lots of different things, as FiremanJG suggested, but the beauty of the OCW and the Ladder tests is that they help minimize their effects.


We're speaking of the same reason. I just skipped to the finish line, and that's my fault. Vertical dispertion, or more specifically, lack there of shows that the bullet is leaving the barrel upon the pause in the sine wave. When that perfect powder charge range is found (node) it really helps reduce the negative effects of other problems going on within the load or the rifle/ shooter.

We're saying the same information, just different wording. cheers
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#5503060 - 12/27/14 06:52 PM Re: Creedmoore OCW Test [Re: RDub270]
ChadTRG42 Online   happy
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 9397
Loc: Lewisville, TX
Originally Posted By: RDub270
[quote=ChadTRG42]...Load A is in the center, Load B low left, Load C top left, and Load D top right. You can see how the groups are open for A and B. Load C strings the group up and down, which told me Load D should be good. I shot Load D, and there you go, 5 rounds sub inch at 300 yards.
quote]

How did you come to the conclusion that Load D should be good, before Load D was loaded and shot down range?


On a good rifle with a good shooter and consistent ammo, groups will typically string up/down or side/side before an accuracy node. The 2 groups before were fairly open, and Load C strung them up and down, with 3 fairly tight. So I knew I was close, and Load D, most likely, or Load E would be it. I have hundreds of targets just like this one with groups stringing, then the sweet spot is after that. When you test loads for many years, you read into the groups and learn what the groups tell you.
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#5503069 - 12/27/14 06:57 PM Re: Creedmoore OCW Test [Re: j-thames]
ChadTRG42 Online   happy
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 9397
Loc: Lewisville, TX
Based on the 6.5 CM 100 yard target and only 3 round groups, which isn't enough to get a good idea of what the rifle and ammo are truly doing, the last group I'd pick is B. How can you pick a group that is stringing right and left? Load B and C are the worst one's. Load A and D are the nodes. Plus I know there is a node at 41.5 and 42.5 with this bullet, which puts his data right in line with what I'm seeing. Re-shoot Loads A and D at 200, we'll know. Do 4 or 5 rounds next.
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#5503072 - 12/27/14 06:58 PM Re: Creedmoore OCW Test [Re: j-thames]
daniel1381 Offline
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Registered: 03/07/12
Posts: 3497
Loc: longview texas
Whats es?
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#5503073 - 12/27/14 06:58 PM Re: Creedmoore OCW Test [Re: daniel1381]
ChadTRG42 Online   happy
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 9397
Loc: Lewisville, TX
Originally Posted By: daniel1381
Whats es?

Extreme Spread from the high to the low shots.
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#5503153 - 12/27/14 07:50 PM Re: Creedmoore OCW Test [Re: ChadTRG42]
FiremanJG Offline
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Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 17893
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
Originally Posted By: daniel1381
Whats es?

Extreme Spread from the high to the low shots.


So if you shot five shots of 6.5 Creedmoor and they chronoed like this:

Feet per second

2790
2795
2802
2802
2805

The highest number being 2805 fps
The lowest number being 2790 fps

2805
-2790
= 15 fps ES

ES of 20 and under, and you're in good shape.
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#5503160 - 12/27/14 07:53 PM Re: Creedmoore OCW Test [Re: ChadTRG42]
FiremanJG Offline
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Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 17893
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
Based on the 6.5 CM 100 yard target and only 3 round groups, which isn't enough to get a good idea of what the rifle and ammo are truly doing, the last group I'd pick is B. How can you pick a group that is stringing right and left? Load B and C are the worst one's. Load A and D are the nodes. Plus I know there is a node at 41.5 and 42.5 with this bullet, which puts his data right in line with what I'm seeing. Re-shoot Loads A and D at 200, we'll know. Do 4 or 5 rounds next.


I blamed the left to right on shooter error with bad trigger control. And +1 on the 140 gr. shooting between 41.5 and 42.5 gr. of H-4350

We did a ladder on two seperate 6.5 Creedmoors at 500 yards. My rifle shoots at 41.3 gr. and James's shoots at 41.4 gr.
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#5503525 - 12/27/14 11:04 PM Re: Creedmoore OCW Test [Re: j-thames]
j-thames Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 11/10/10
Posts: 108
Loc: Stephenville
I believe I will try all three.
How accurate/consistent is an rcbs 5-0-5 scale?

Also how do I learn better trigger control?

As a side note I shot three 5 shot groups of factory Hornady amax ammo as well. All three groups were around .7" with an es of 33, 39 & 59. Avg = 2775 fps

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