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#5461606 - 12/06/14 04:58 PM Factory Subsonic 308s are keyholing?
RedSnake Offline
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 3011
Loc: Dallas / Nolan County
Just picked up my Surefire SOCOM RC 762 yest and it's riding up front a new Tikka T3 CTR 308 with 1:11 twist. 168 gr AMAX ordered from Right To Bear ammo are keyholing

Any recs on over the counter loads that will stabilize until I can get some custom loads worked up?
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#5462108 - 12/06/14 10:57 PM Re: Factory Subsonic 308s are keyholing? [Re: RedSnake]
Rocklock Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 08/09/10
Posts: 395
Loc: Cedar Valley, Travis Co., TX
With that weight projectiles I suspect the 1:11 twist is to slow for that bullet at that speed. The longer a bullet the faster it must spin to stabilize.
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#5462775 - 12/07/14 12:21 PM Re: Factory Subsonic 308s are keyholing? [Re: RedSnake]
ChadTRG42 Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 9433
Loc: Lewisville, TX
LOL!! I'll just say that Right to Bear Ammo doesn't understand subsonics! That bullet will not stabilize at subsonic flight, no matter what you do. And it's not because of the lack of twist. I saw they offered this ammo a few months ago and I laughed, because it will not work. You need to call them and ask for your money back, and tell them they need to do a little more R&D with this ammo. That's all I'm gonna say.

I offer a 308 Win sub load that will work in a 1:12" twist or faster, which your 1:11" is. It will work very well.

http://dallasreloads.com/product-category/308-winchester-subsonic/
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#5463668 - 12/07/14 07:08 PM Re: Factory Subsonic 308s are keyholing? [Re: ChadTRG42]
GasGuzzler Online   content
Pro Tracker

Registered: 12/15/13
Posts: 1643
Loc: Cooke County, Texas
Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
LOL!! I'll just say that Right to Bear Ammo doesn't understand subsonics! That bullet will not stabilize at subsonic flight, no matter what you do. And it's not because of the lack of twist. I saw they offered this ammo a few months ago and I laughed, because it will not work. You need to call them and ask for your money back, and tell them they need to do a little more R&D with this ammo. That's all I'm gonna say.

I offer a 308 Win sub load that will work in a 1:12" twist or faster, which your 1:11" is. It will work very well.

http://dallasreloads.com/product-category/308-winchester-subsonic/


No dog in this hunt but it seems you should say why there's no way for it to work instead of selling your own stuff. No insult intended, just wanna hear the end of the thought that starts with "That bullet will not stabilize at subsonic flight, no matter what you do. And it's not because of the lack of twist....." This is an educational sub-forum, no? The Classifieds section is elsewhere.
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#5463800 - 12/07/14 07:53 PM Re: Factory Subsonic 308s are keyholing? [Re: RedSnake]
ChadTRG42 Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 9433
Loc: Lewisville, TX
You're right! I though about not posting that. But I don't like seeing a company just put a bullet on top of some gun powder and call it good. They did no research or ballistic testing with this bullet. If they did, they would see it wouldn't work. I'm a shooter and play with A LOT of bullets and test a lot of stuff. The 168 A-max will not stabilize for the same reason a 168 Sierra Match king won't at sub speeds. The boat tail angle is too steep. When either of these 168 bullets goes subsonic, the steep boat tail angle (12.9 degrees for the A-max) causes turbulence behind the bullet. This turbulence causes the bullet to yaw, and will begin to tumble or keyhole. This happens almost immediately after leaving the barrel. No amount of twist will stabilize this bullet at sub speeds. I literally knew months ago that their product wouldn't work. And it's sad to see this. I see it often.
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#5466097 - 12/08/14 08:32 PM Re: Factory Subsonic 308s are keyholing? [Re: ChadTRG42]
colt45 Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 5397
Loc: bastrop county
Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
You're right! I though about not posting that. But I don't like seeing a company just put a bullet on top of some gun powder and call it good. They did no research or ballistic testing with this bullet. If they did, they would see it wouldn't work. I'm a shooter and play with A LOT of bullets and test a lot of stuff. The 168 A-max will not stabilize for the same reason a 168 Sierra Match king won't at sub speeds. The boat tail angle is too steep. When either of these 168 bullets goes subsonic, the steep boat tail angle (12.9 degrees for the A-max) causes turbulence behind the bullet. This turbulence causes the bullet to yaw, and will begin to tumble or keyhole. This happens almost immediately after leaving the barrel. No amount of twist will stabilize this bullet at sub speeds. I literally knew months ago that their product wouldn't work. And it's sad to see this. I see it often.
I appreciate the info, don't bother me to hear your service's
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#5466613 - 12/09/14 08:01 AM Re: Factory Subsonic 308s are keyholing? [Re: GasGuzzler]
jeffbird Offline


Registered: 03/09/09
Posts: 1725
Originally Posted By: GasGuzzler
Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
LOL!! I'll just say that Right to Bear Ammo doesn't understand subsonics! That bullet will not stabilize at subsonic flight, no matter what you do. And it's not because of the lack of twist. I saw they offered this ammo a few months ago and I laughed, because it will not work. You need to call them and ask for your money back, and tell them they need to do a little more R&D with this ammo. That's all I'm gonna say.

I offer a 308 Win sub load that will work in a 1:12" twist or faster, which your 1:11" is. It will work very well.

http://dallasreloads.com/product-category/308-winchester-subsonic/


No dog in this hunt but it seems you should say why there's no way for it to work instead of selling your own stuff. No insult intended, just wanna hear the end of the thought that starts with "That bullet will not stabilize at subsonic flight, no matter what you do. And it's not because of the lack of twist....." This is an educational sub-forum, no? The Classifieds section is elsewhere.


The OP asked for a recommendation on factory ammo, so Chad's response is appropriate to answer the question, especially since there are not that many offerings for sub-sonic rifle ammo, and likely none at local shops.

Originally Posted By: RedSnake

Any recs on over the counter loads that will stabilize until I can get some custom loads worked up?

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#5468772 - 12/10/14 06:36 AM Re: Factory Subsonic 308s are keyholing? [Re: ChadTRG42]
FiremanJG Offline
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Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 17893
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
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