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The Lion thread #5450434 12/01/14 01:53 AM
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This one may go to crap in a hand basket, oh well. Watching 60 minutes, yeah liberal CBS. The segment was about a fella with a sanctuary of lions. He use to work for a place that is a breeding machine for lions in Africa.

Americans pay huge money to go to this park and pet kitten lions or smaller ones. The thing that just made me blow a head gasket? They sell the adult lions for canned Hunts!!!! Most of these so called hunters pay upwards of 100 GS. Why on Gods beautiful planet would one do this to these cats? As a hunter or seller. No wonder PETA tears us new ripe one. Deserving on this BS.


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Re: The Lion thread [Re: 7mag] #5450461 12/01/14 02:01 AM
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Is there any difference raiseing exotics or WT in breeding pens and releasing them to be killed ? I'm not stating if it's right or wrong just a question.


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Re: The Lion thread [Re: TB338] #5450470 12/01/14 02:05 AM
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Originally Posted By: Stagman1
Is there any difference raiseing exotics or WT in breeding pens and releasing them to be killed ?


Wow. I never gave it a thought that way. With that stated though. Don't we the hunters and outfitters always push how the species has strived because of our efforts? Interesting.

Re: The Lion thread [Re: 7mag] #5450489 12/01/14 02:11 AM
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Africa is a whole other issue.

If you own a large ranch what do you think those lions would cost you over a years time in animals eaten?

Also have to remember densities. What's the home range of one pride?

Take the desities combined with feeding them and it economics 101.


As far as the show... Be very careful forming an opinion based on a slanted show.. Book you a lion hunt with a bow and tell me how friendly they are.


Donate to TX Youth hunting program.... better to donate then to waste it in taxes

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Re: The Lion thread [Re: 7mag] #5450511 12/01/14 02:18 AM
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Your post would be better received on a Peta forum than here. Since you hunt in texas, I will assume you sit in a blind over a corn feeder and when that feeder goes off the deer come running. To many people in other areas, that is ludacris. I've flown in a helicopter and shot hogs before. People think that is nuts and unethical. To each their own, but unless someone is breaking the law or poaching then I would just relax and let people do their thing. If the law allows it, why attack fellow hunters?



Re: The Lion thread [Re: 7mag] #5450515 12/01/14 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted By: 7mag
This one may go to crap in a hand basket, oh well. Watching 60 minutes, yeah liberal CBS. The segment was about a fella with a sanctuary of lions. He use to work for a place that is a breeding machine for lions in Africa.

Americans pay huge money to go to this park and pet kitten lions or smaller ones. The thing that just made me blow a head gasket? They sell the adult lions for canned Hunts!!!! Most of these so called hunters pay upwards of 100 GS. Why on Gods beautiful planet would one do this to these cats? As a hunter or seller. No wonder PETA tears us new ripe one. Deserving on this BS.


Sorry Sir, this is a very misunderstood market. If you would like to know more I know a Lion breeder. He would be more than happy to inform you the ins and outs. What you just posted is not exactly the way things happen. I have hunted Africa many times both "wild Africa" and fenced farms, and there is a lot of Gas spewed from people that have never been, nor understand.

Ed

Re: The Lion thread [Re: 7mag] #5450548 12/01/14 02:28 AM
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I watched the 60 minutes piece as well. I think the point they mentioned that is pretty disappointing is the movement of the adult Lions that grew up in the "Petting Farms" to what they call a "canned hunt". There you have a Lion that was raised literally with hands on human contact, now being sold as a trophy hunt.

Don't care how you spin that, there is no way to call that "Sport" or hunting.

Charlie


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Re: The Lion thread [Re: 7mag] #5450552 12/01/14 02:29 AM
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You will not find a "wild" lion hunt in South Africa. In other countries they still have hunts for true wild lions in established prides but they are lotto winner expensive. It's the same thing we do here, buy critters turn em lose in a fence of whatever size and kill em. We use axis they lions no different. Look around and you'll find $6-8000 lioness hunts in South Africa for 5-7 days these cats were not captured and brought in and they are sure not "wild". I see no problem as all circumstances are different. Is 5000 acres of South African bush with electric fence fair? Is 10,000? Is an axis in 2000 acres of hill country? That's up to the hunter. You can thank Walt Disney and shows like 60 minutes for making lions out to be something other than just another animal. Honestly IMO some of these hunts are saving some of the truly wild prides as they are cheaper and some hunters that would be taking lions from wild prides may take these instead. I'd do it today.

Re: The Lion thread [Re: CharlieCTx] #5450577 12/01/14 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted By: CharlieCTx
I watched the 60 minutes piece as well. I think the point they mentioned that is pretty disappointing is the movement of the adult Lions that grew up in the "Petting Farms" to what they call a "canned hunt". There you have a Lion that was raised literally with hands on human contact, now being sold as a trophy hunt.

Don't care how you spin that, there is no way to call that "Sport" or hunting.

Charlie


So please explain how sitting in a blind, playing on your cell phone, waiting for a feeder to go off is more of a sport than hunting an animal on the ground that could kill you?

For the record I hunt in stands over feeders so not bashing it, just trying to genuinely figure out how people justify their way and frown on other methods.



Re: The Lion thread [Re: 7mag] #5450658 12/01/14 03:03 AM
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I agree 100% 7mag!


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Re: The Lion thread [Re: 7mag] #5450662 12/01/14 03:06 AM
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Re: The Lion thread [Re: cmc] #5450687 12/01/14 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted By: cmc
You will not find a "wild" lion hunt in South Africa. In other countries they still have hunts for true wild lions in established prides but they are lotto winner expensive. It's the same thing we do here, buy critters turn em lose in a fence of whatever size and kill em. We use axis they lions no different. Look around and you'll find $6-8000 lioness hunts in South Africa for 5-7 days these cats were not captured and brought in and they are sure not "wild". I see no problem as all circumstances are different. Is 5000 acres of South African bush with electric fence fair? Is 10,000? Is an axis in 2000 acres of hill country? That's up to the hunter. You can thank Walt Disney and shows like 60 minutes for making lions out to be something other than just another animal. Honestly IMO some of these hunts are saving some of the truly wild prides as they are cheaper and some hunters that would be taking lions from wild prides may take these instead. I'd do it today.



I agree with most of what you say, but your first statement is wrong. You can find a few Wild Lion hunts in South Africa. The Timbavarti has 2-3 every year, one or so in Kalserie, and maybe one other in the surrounding areas north of Kruger, but true it will be quite limited,and yes they are expensive. I have a friend that does fenced Lion hunts. His are expensive as he turns the Lions loose on an open farm of 11,200 ac. 20-30 days in advance of the hunt. In every case these Lions have killed a few animals by the time they are hunted, and I will tell you they are very wild. They are definitely not "eating out of your hand". I have never had a urge to shoot a Lion. You can either, track a Lion on a fenced property, or assassinate a wild Lion over bait. I like to hunt Elephant and buffalo, much more rewarding that Lion hunt to me. If you ask me can a Fenced Lion hunt be Sporting? I say it shure can be, if done right. Can it be canned? The answer is yes to that too...

Ed

Re: The Lion thread [Re: 7mag] #5450706 12/01/14 03:24 AM
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Ed you're right I should never say never there are the few. I have a lot of opinions on this and should probably steer clear of this thread as I think the issue is not so much about lions as it is about personal believes and how people have been influenced to think that some animals are untouchable and what is done to them is somehow wrong when we are doing the exact same thing to other species but it's ok. Basically like in anything every person thinks what they are doing is the right thing and if you aren't doing it that way you are wrong.

Re: The Lion thread [Re: CharlieCTx] #5450798 12/01/14 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted By: CharlieCTx
I watched the 60 minutes piece as well. I think the point they mentioned that is pretty disappointing is the movement of the adult Lions that grew up in the "Petting Farms" to what they call a "canned hunt". There you have a Lion that was raised literally with hands on human contact, now being sold as a trophy hunt.

Don't care how you spin that, there is no way to call that "Sport" or hunting.

Charlie
Thanks, Charlie. I could not have stated it better. I watched 60 minutes, too. Raising "petting animals" to be shot by so called "hunters". Pretty pathetic to say the least.


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Re: The Lion thread [Re: 7mag] #5450816 12/01/14 04:02 AM
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I'd rather shoot my lions from a fair chase situation, if I were to shoot one. The CBS piece was about "Canned hunts" with tame animals that have been raised from birth, with human contact, then stuck inside a small enclosure to be killed , once they mature. Canned hunts are illegal in Texas BTW.


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Re: The Lion thread [Re: 7mag] #5450843 12/01/14 04:20 AM
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"Canned" hunting dangerous game is but various species of hoofed game are hunted in the same conditions daily in Texas, further proving my point.

Re: The Lion thread [Re: 7mag] #5450853 12/01/14 04:32 AM
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Hard to believe how many people believe everything they hear or read. Talk about leading a lamb to slaughter. CBS loves you.

Did you hear about Next weeks program on 60 minutes "Children around the world are starving while Texas hunters use corn to bring Bambi within arrow range".

loco

I'm against "canned hunts" It's just I know the difference . I hunted on a 250,000 acre HF ranch in Africa once. Guess to some it was "canned". Crap my professional hunter must have been an idiot because I had to walked and hunted my a$$ off. Never even saw a Lion. Heard some roaring at night though.

That time I went dove hunting in Argentina and our camp was protected by armed guards... I was canned.
An 8x10 cell to a human is canned. 2,000 acres HF is a resort.

There is a middle ground however who decides how much land that is. "The Government" now gentleman the more and more we allow that to happen we are canned.

Last edited by SheepHunter; 12/01/14 05:18 AM.
Re: The Lion thread [Re: 7mag] #5451147 12/01/14 04:09 PM
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I'll throw this out there......

What if 60 minutes did a show on a petting zoo with deer. Showed the owner bottle feeding baby deer in all their glorious spots and cuddling up to customers. Showed full grown deer playing with the owner and him kissing them and petting them. Then all the sudden in the middle of the program they transition to a grainy home video of a person in texas in a blind waiting over a feeder spewing corn and the deer come running. Once they come the guy in the blind makes a shot a little high and breaks the deers back (which we have all seen at one point or another) and the deer tries to run off dragging its back legs - and the hunter still celebrates (which we have all done). The show then goes on to explain how deer are brought from breeders to ranches in Texas and this is what happens to the poor deer.

How is that any different, other than being skewed for the general public by some really good editors? This may be a bit of a stretch but I promise you if 60 minutes decided to take issue with it - they could spin a story better than the one I just did.

I just get so confused on how someone can sit on their high horse while training a deer to come to a feeder like clockwork, so much so that we even get to know every deer that comes to the feeder, and then jump up in arms over how someone else hunts. None of you who are preaching have yet to explain how you justify your method vs other methods - just since it is yours it has to be right.

Again, I am all for hunting over feeders - wish New Mexico would allow it. But I am also for hunting lions if it is legal. And maybe the better question here is why on earth is there a petting zoo for lions?



Re: The Lion thread [Re: 7mag] #5451182 12/01/14 04:27 PM
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why does one animal have more value than another? we eat deer, not dogs...

we hunt deer, not rats(generally)... we put arbitrary values on animals. My issue is more, where/how and how legally he got the lions to begin with.

No I don't think that it is sporting to raise an animal by hand and then hunt it. SPORTING, I SAID NOT SPORTING... ethically it is no different than raising cattle.

Now the guy selling the hunts, those are a different set of ethics. Though I will point out that if some Foreigner said he would come a pay 10 grand or more to walk out in the back 40 and shoot Bessie... Bessie would be tied to a stake if that's what the man wanted...

There is a difference in bringing in exotics and releasing them onto a large ranch and letting them roam and hunting them. and bottle feeding and cuddling them then hunting them.

Last edited by catslayer; 12/01/14 04:29 PM.

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Re: The Lion thread [Re: catslayer] #5451292 12/01/14 05:01 PM
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I'm old enough to remember CBS's "The Guns of Autumn". An attack piece that portrayed all hunting as "canned" and/or "unfair" to animals.

In 1975 the entire hunting community circled the wagons and busted CBS's chops so bad that after an attempted sequel to "justify" the original, they NEVER attacked hunting again.

Scroll forward 39 years and voila, the "hunting" community is joining CBS in their attacks hunting.

Going after the low hanging fruit disguises the left's strategic goals... only to the incredibly naive.

Cannibalism will destroy OUR hunting heritage. That OUR includes elitists who want to decide for others what is or isn't hunting.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/pages/never-forgive-never-forget-dan-rather-and-%E2%80%9C-guns-autumn%E2%80%9D

Last edited by therancher; 12/01/14 05:02 PM.

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Re: The Lion thread [Re: therancher] #5451387 12/01/14 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: therancher
I'm old enough to remember CBS's "The Guns of Autumn". An attack piece that portrayed all hunting as "canned" and/or "unfair" to animals.

In 1975 the entire hunting community circled the wagons and busted CBS's chops so bad that after an attempted sequel to "justify" the original, they NEVER attacked hunting again.

Scroll forward 39 years and voila, the "hunting" community is joining CBS in their attacks hunting.

Going after the low hanging fruit disguises the left's strategic goals... only to the incredibly naive.

Cannibalism will destroy OUR hunting heritage. That OUR includes elitists who want to decide for others what is or isn't hunting.

Field & Stream article link


'Hope you don't mind, I fixed the link. I think this is what you intended.

Agree 100%


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Re: The Lion thread [Re: 7mag] #5451408 12/01/14 05:36 PM
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Canned lion hunting has been beaten to death over on accuratereloading.com; much more African hunting centered and quite a few more "elitists" over there.

A canned lion hunt wouldn't be my cup of tea. But if the laws of South Africa allow it, then our arrogant American liberals should keep their nose out. These same liberals told us South Africa would be paradise if the white's would just give up power. Johannesburg can now boast the highest murder rate in the world, but you won't see that reported; similar to the murders every week in Chicago.

Would I shoot a lion on a truly wild hunt in Zim or Tanzania, if I could justify the cost and had the space for a full-mount? In a heartbeat.


...and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen. 1:28
Re: The Lion thread [Re: Creekrunner] #5451427 12/01/14 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted By: Creekrunner
Originally Posted By: therancher
I'm old enough to remember CBS's "The Guns of Autumn". An attack piece that portrayed all hunting as "canned" and/or "unfair" to animals.

In 1975 the entire hunting community circled the wagons and busted CBS's chops so bad that after an attempted sequel to "justify" the original, they NEVER attacked hunting again.

Scroll forward 39 years and voila, the "hunting" community is joining CBS in their attacks hunting.

Going after the low hanging fruit disguises the left's strategic goals... only to the incredibly naive.

Cannibalism will destroy OUR hunting heritage. That OUR includes elitists who want to decide for others what is or isn't hunting.

Field & Stream article link


'Hope you don't mind, I fixed the link. I think this is what you intended.

Agree 100%


Ha! I NEVER mind technical help...

And I agree 100% with your post as well. Wanna talk Cowboyz??? Heh heh..


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Re: The Lion thread [Re: 7mag] #5451482 12/01/14 06:04 PM
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Simple.

Hunting is different than just killing something.

It's OK to kill something as long as it's legal. Livestock is slaughtered by the thousands every day to meet our food needs.

The issue that many hunters and non-hunters alike have is when just killing something is called hunting. People draw the lines differently, of course. But that is why there is an issue/debate about it.


Originally Posted by Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: The Lion thread [Re: Nogalus Prairie] #5451505 12/01/14 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
Simple.

Hunting is different than just killing something.

It's OK to kill something as long as it's legal. Livestock is slaughtered by the thousands every day to meet our food needs.

The issue that many hunters and non-hunters alike have is when just killing something is called hunting. People draw the lines differently, of course. But that is why there is an issue/debate about it.


What you describe above is simply semantics. It would be fine if people just disagreed on what a word means. But it goes much further than that as you know.

People want to outlaw hunting/killing/whatever you want to call it. Some want to outlaw all hunting, some (like you I believe), would like to see high fenced hunting outlawed.

That's where the rub is. If it simply stayed a debate over semantics, then it would be no issue. However, when semantics are used in the fight to outlaw someone elses personal preference, it becomes something that ALL hunters should oppose.

Because the outlawing of all hunting is the strategic goal of the anti-hunter/killer/whatever you want to call it.

Last edited by therancher; 12/01/14 06:15 PM.

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