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Any Sheep like this in Texas #5449234 11/30/14 04:41 AM
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LuckyHunter Offline OP
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PM if any exist

Re: Any Sheep like this in Texas [Re: LuckyHunter] #5449246 11/30/14 04:56 AM
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Anatolian/Konya Mouflon? I don't believe so? But I could be wrong....

Would love to see them here, but some individuals would rather cross them into tame handfed mongrel oblivion instead of preserving a species for what it is....not sayin' names or nothing whistle

Re: Any Sheep like this in Texas [Re: Kobus] #5449260 11/30/14 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted By: Kobus
Anatolian/Konya Mouflon? I don't believe so? But I could be wrong....

Would love to see them here, but some individuals would rather cross them into tame handfed mongrel oblivion instead of preserving a species for what it is....not sayin' names or nothing whistle


back

Re: Any Sheep like this in Texas [Re: LuckyHunter] #5449340 11/30/14 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: SheepHunter
Originally Posted By: Kobus
Anatolian/Konya Mouflon? I don't believe so? But I could be wrong....

Would love to see them here, but some individuals would rather cross them into tame handfed mongrel oblivion instead of preserving a species for what it is....not sayin' names or nothing whistle


back


clap


Aaron Gage
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www.texasibex.com
Re: Any Sheep like this in Texas [Re: Aaron-Ibex] #5449601 11/30/14 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted By: Aaron-Ibex
Originally Posted By: SheepHunter
Originally Posted By: Kobus
Anatolian/Konya Mouflon? I don't believe so? But I could be wrong....

Would love to see them here, but some individuals would rather cross them into tame handfed mongrel oblivion instead of preserving a species for what it is....not sayin' names or nothing whistle


back


clap


X3

Re: Any Sheep like this in Texas [Re: LuckyHunter] #5449613 11/30/14 04:51 PM
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Great looking sheep. The width on those rams is pretty impressive.

On the Priour Ranch website they have the following picture which they labeled "Afghan Urial". To me it did not look like what I expected an Afghan Urial to look like as it was missing the white mane and had a hint of a saddle (like the pics you posted). It looks very similar to the pics you posted. I know you've probably seen the picture and hunted the Priour, but I thought it might be interesting to post the pic for others viewing the thread.


Re: Any Sheep like this in Texas [Re: LuckyHunter] #5452105 12/01/14 09:56 PM
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If there was, I would damn sure like to know about it.

Re: Any Sheep like this in Texas [Re: LuckyHunter] #5454125 12/02/14 07:38 PM
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Beyond the five known wild sheep species in Texas known from having at least SOME "pure" herds(Afghan Urial, Transcaspian Urial, European Mouflon, Armenian Mouflon, and Iranian Red Sheep) anything else is going to be a gambit.

I know there were some "Cyprian Mouflon" somewhere
....but as far as we could know, someone could have crossed an Arm. Mouflon and European Mouflon, got a mutt with the coat color of Euro and horn style of Armenian, and passed it off as a Cyprian.... bang barf

Re: Any Sheep like this in Texas [Re: LuckyHunter] #5454175 12/02/14 08:09 PM
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I'm not a sheep guy but I remember someone here posting a photo of some kind of European Blue sheep or something like that. It's been awhile and my memory isn't what it was! Baker


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Re: Any Sheep like this in Texas [Re: LuckyHunter] #5454196 12/02/14 08:17 PM
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I think it was a Chinese Blue Sheep? I believe Mr. Robert Staurt shot one with a client and put it on here.

Re: Any Sheep like this in Texas [Re: LuckyHunter] #5454308 12/02/14 09:12 PM
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If you do a Google search on the top image you'll get the following. Apparently that photo was taken in 2012 and they show it as a Mouflon/ Ovis aries urmiana. So it is one of the Mouflon subspecies.

http://www.zoochat.com/1554/mouflon-ovis-aries-urmiana-279927/

Re: Any Sheep like this in Texas [Re: LuckyHunter] #5454324 12/02/14 09:23 PM
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If you are interested, go look at this website (you will see the 3rd pic listed in the original post as a Konya Mouflon). As I scanned the pics there are 3 Mouflon species that look about identical to me .... Konya Mouflon, Laristan Mouflon, Esfahan Mouflon. All impressive l;ooking sheep. Makes you wonder if they are really a different subspecies or if they are the same animal and just come from different areas (Like how they differentiate Grizzly Bears from Brown Bears).


http://www.monarchtaxidermyinc.com/janda/products_new.php?ID=23

Re: Any Sheep like this in Texas [Re: LuckyHunter] #5454419 12/02/14 10:12 PM
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^^^^

Very hard to get permits... some available via darting. Numbers declined due to domestic sheep.

Agreed a lot of mouflon overlap.

I'll settle for a place to hunt one that looks like OP.

Re: Any Sheep like this in Texas [Re: LuckyHunter] #5454513 12/02/14 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted By: SheepHunter
^^^^

Very hard to get permits... some available via darting. Numbers declined due to domestic sheep.

Agreed a lot of mouflon overlap.

I'll settle for a place to hunt one that looks like OP.


Check your email......

Re: Any Sheep like this in Texas [Re: LuckyHunter] #5454886 12/03/14 01:34 AM
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^^^ Thank you

Re: Any Sheep like this in Texas [Re: LuckyHunter] #5463009 12/07/14 08:16 PM
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Konya/Anatolian Mouflon are the same sheep as an Armenian sheep it just happens to come from the Turkish side of the border.

Short answer to the OP is yes - some of the better herds of Armenians can look like this

Re: Any Sheep like this in Texas [Re: Txnrog] #5463348 12/07/14 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted By: Txnrog
Konya/Anatolian Mouflon are the same sheep as an Armenian sheep it just happens to come from the Turkish side of the border.

Short answer to the OP is yes - some of the better herds of Armenians can look like this


Txnrog,
All the reading I did on them after SheepHunter posted the pictures indicated they are considered a different subspecies of Mouflon from Armenian Mouflon. That's what the "books" say, but I am not an expert in sheep taxonomy. See the attached link as an FYI.

http://www.metu.edu.tr/~cbilgin/gmelinii.htm

Here is a quote from the above link "The subspecies is geographically separated from the nominate Armenian Mouflon (O. g. gmelinii) of northwestern Iran and easternmost Turkey. There is no evidence that these two forms were connected at least in the last several hundred years."

So it seems they are related but considered a separate subspecies.

That said, if you have any pictures of Armenian Mouflons in Texas that look like these sheep it would be great if you could post them.

Last edited by TonyinVA; 12/07/14 11:05 PM.
Re: Any Sheep like this in Texas [Re: LuckyHunter] #5464242 12/08/14 03:26 AM
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I am on a scouting expedition and it appears I may have found some. Now this trait seems to be as rare as the sheep itself. I'm no expert either but armenian/mouflon does seem to enter the equation. I will be in the field again tomorrow and hope to get some pictures.
The answer maybe as simple as a certain bloodline trait in a restricted area. No matter it's a sheep and it's fun.


Lucky 7 Exotic Ranch located in Eden, Tx. Well managed self sustaining herds roaming our 3,000 acre ranch. First Class Lodging, Ranch style meals and qualified guides. 30+ species.
Re: Any Sheep like this in Texas [Re: LuckyHunter] #5464307 12/08/14 03:58 AM
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Sheephunter,
The link I posted ( http://www.metu.edu.tr/~cbilgin/gmelinii.htm ) implies the two Mouflon subspecies are isolated by mountain range.... so they probably evolved to have slight differences due to the isolation. Most notably the horn shape is suppose to be slightly different from the Armenians...and all the pictures seem to support that...they don't seem to go back behind the head as far and the tip to tip spread seems wider.

So, the 64 Dollar Question, do you think you found some Armenian Mouflons that look like an Konya/Anatolian Mouflon or did you find someone saying that they have Konya/Anatolian Mouflons Ovis Aries Urmiana?

Here is an Armenian Mouflon from the White Elk Ranch eith horns that looks a lot like the Konya/Anatolian Mouflon Ovis Aries Urmiana



Last edited by TonyinVA; 12/08/14 07:16 PM.
Re: Any Sheep like this in Texas [Re: LuckyHunter] #5464368 12/08/14 04:52 AM
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Circle H armenian herd has some males that look like that. There's no guarantee your first pics are all Konya Mouflon - the first one looks awfully like some of the rams from the Armenian Zoo.

Guys, we're getting a bit absurd with the sheep posts. Sheep experts/taxonomists could argue these things for days, and to think that Tx ranchers getting small influxes of overstock from zoos can keep these subspecies separate is a bit of a stretch. This is why none qualify for the more reputable record books or slams if taken here.

The species of wild sheep I personally can confirm are here in pure (or at least pure as you'll find from zoos) status are European Mouflon, Armenian Mouflon, Red Sheep, and Transcaspian Urial. Outside of that I personally believe you have some creative marketing going on, and even as it relates to those species you have a fair percentage of animals that are grossly mislabeled.

I do think that it is likely that we have some blood of closely related subspecies within those major species present as taxonomy changes over time, the areas these animals are from haven't been consistently accessible, and genetic testing is relatively new (therefore zoos stuck animals that looked similar together without regard for subspecies purity to keep their herds viable). Worth also noting that there are fenced properties or islands used as such in the home ranges of these species, many of which served as founding stock for zoos - who knows where that original stock came from.

All of which is a long way of saying buyer be ware on the core species, and I think it's unrealistic to expect there's much outside of that in Tx, even though some may look like the pictures seen on the net.

Re: Any Sheep like this in Texas [Re: Txnrog] #5464681 12/08/14 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted By: Txnrog
Circle H armenian herd has some males that look like that. There's no guarantee your first pics are all Konya Mouflon - the first one looks awfully like some of the rams from the Armenian Zoo.

Guys, we're getting a bit absurd with the sheep posts. Sheep experts/taxonomists could argue these things for days, and to think that Tx ranchers getting small influxes of overstock from zoos can keep these subspecies separate is a bit of a stretch. This is why none qualify for the more reputable record books or slams if taken here.

The species of wild sheep I personally can confirm are here in pure (or at least pure as you'll find from zoos) status are European Mouflon, Armenian Mouflon, Red Sheep, and Transcaspian Urial. Outside of that I personally believe you have some creative marketing going on, and even as it relates to those species you have a fair percentage of animals that are grossly mislabeled.

I do think that it is likely that we have some blood of closely related subspecies within those major species present as taxonomy changes over time, the areas these animals are from haven't been consistently accessible, and genetic testing is relatively new (therefore zoos stuck animals that looked similar together without regard for subspecies purity to keep their herds viable). Worth also noting that there are fenced properties or islands used as such in the home ranges of these species, many of which served as founding stock for zoos - who knows where that original stock came from.

All of which is a long way of saying buyer be ware on the core species, and I think it's unrealistic to expect there's much outside of that in Tx, even though some may look like the pictures seen on the net.


I don't think there is a lot of disagreement on your post above regarding what's on the ranches in Texas...at least not from me. Who knows what their pedigrees are and in my view if you see a ram you like and the price is right...shoot it and be happy. .... but I do think the 1st pic is an Anatolian/Konya Mouflon based on the horn configuration (see the description of these rams in the link I posted in a prior post) and I also think they are a separate species from the Armenian Mouflon (that goes to your other post where you stated they and Armenian Mouflons are the same and just separated by a border). Like you, I also doubt you are going to find one of these subspecies in Texas but you may well find an Armenian Mouflon with horns that sweep more outwardly (rather than behind the neck) and look pretty similar to the ram in the picture. I don't want to start a debate..just having a conversation on some really nice looking sheep species.

BTW, here is a link to the pic SheepHunter posted. I suspect it is a zoo animail in Europe or the middle East since the pic is on a site called "zoochat" and the photographer is from Israel. The photo doesn't give a location of the subject in the photo, but it really does match the description of what these subspecies should look like.

http://www.zoochat.com/1554/mouflon-ovis-aries-urmiana-279927/


Last edited by TonyinVA; 12/08/14 10:51 PM.
Re: Any Sheep like this in Texas [Re: LuckyHunter] #5464922 12/08/14 04:55 PM
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Case in point, the first pic is from the Carmel Hai-Bar preserve in Israel per the photo credit (verified by looking at the reserve's site). They label it Ovis Aries Urmiana, do some research on that, it's a made up name to describe a sheep from the lake Urmia region in the northwest corner of Iran, near the border of Armenia and Turkey - smack dab in the middle of Armenian Mouflon territory. Looks different than many Armenians seen before, and do a little searching. Bam looks like a Konya mouflon someone assigns it that name. Now the next guy that googles Konya mouflon sees this post, or just the image in a google search - forever more, that's what a Konya mouflon looks like.

Now, this Zoo uses a scientific name of a general sheep (Ovis Aries covers all domestic sheep) with a subspecies designator for the specific region it comes from. You normally see Armenian mouflon as O. Gmelini or O. Orientalis Gmelini - does it mean that the Carmel Hai-Bar preserve has some unique undiscovered species - no, they just labeled it differently, likely because there is so much confusion in sheep they just called it a sheep from lake Urmia per the scientific name.

The record books recognize a Konya mouflon, so I am not going to argue that it's a race of Armenian Mouflon from a distinct enough area that it warrants it's own record category or box to check on a grand slam list.

I will argue that the first pic is an Armenian Mouflon, and it looks like good quality sheep I have seen in the states sold as Armenians.

Re: Any Sheep like this in Texas [Re: Txnrog] #5465229 12/08/14 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted By: Txnrog
Case in point, the first pic is from the Carmel Hai-Bar preserve in Israel per the photo credit (verified by looking at the reserve's site). They label it Ovis Aries Urmiana, do some research on that, it's a made up name to describe a sheep from the lake Urmia region in the northwest corner of Iran, near the border of Armenia and Turkey - smack dab in the middle of Armenian Mouflon territory. Looks different than many Armenians seen before, and do a little searching. Bam looks like a Konya mouflon someone assigns it that name. Now the next guy that googles Konya mouflon sees this post, or just the image in a google search - forever more, that's what a Konya mouflon looks like.

Now, this Zoo uses a scientific name of a general sheep (Ovis Aries covers all domestic sheep) with a subspecies designator for the specific region it comes from. You normally see Armenian mouflon as O. Gmelini or O. Orientalis Gmelini - does it mean that the Carmel Hai-Bar preserve has some unique undiscovered species - no, they just labeled it differently, likely because there is so much confusion in sheep they just called it a sheep from lake Urmia per the scientific name.

The record books recognize a Konya mouflon, so I am not going to argue that it's a race of Armenian Mouflon from a distinct enough area that it warrants it's own record category or box to check on a grand slam list.

I will argue that the first pic is an Armenian Mouflon, and it looks like good quality sheep I have seen in the states sold as Armenians.


Txrog,
You are right about the labeling on the first pic....Ovis Aries Urmiana and not Ovis gmelinii anatolica... my mistake.

Second Photo is from SCI Record Book and is labeled Konya Mouflon (http://www.scirecordbook.org/konya-mouflon/) but I am always skeptical of SCI.

Third Photo is a Taxidermy mount also labeled as a Konya Mouflon ([url=phttp://www.monarchtaxidermyinc.com/janda/newphotos.php?start=21&ID=23&PId=1205&MID=23][url=phttp://www.monarchtaxidermyinc.com/janda/newphotos.php?start=21&ID=23&PId=1205&MID=23][url=phttp://www.monarchtaxidermyinc.com/janda/newphotos.php?start=21&ID=23&PId=1205&MID=23]phttp://www.monarchtaxidermyinc.com/janda/newphotos.php?start=21&ID=23&PId=1205&MID=23[/url][/url][/url])

The link I posted earlier (http://www.metu.edu.tr/~cbilgin/gmelinii.htm) talks about TURKISH MOUFLON (Ovis gmelinii anatolica) which seems to be a more scientific site...but the picture are not too numerous or good quality.

All that said, pictures 2 and 3 say they are Konya Mouflons and Picture 1 says Ovis Aries Urmiana ...and I am now unsure what these sheep are for certain except that they have really impressive horns.

Last edited by TonyinVA; 12/08/14 11:03 PM.
Re: Any Sheep like this in Texas [Re: LuckyHunter] #5466226 12/09/14 03:19 AM
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Gentleman, thank you for your input. My post was never meant tostir the genetic pot.

I just liked the horn shape, more forward and wide so I posted a question.

I photographed these today. I am not saying these are Konya Mouflon. However I have found that the horn shape, more forward and wide appear to exist.
As TonyinVA said "if you see a ram you like and the price is right...shoot it and be happy. ... up

Happy Hunting





Re: Any Sheep like this in Texas [Re: LuckyHunter] #5466310 12/09/14 04:15 AM
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Nice sheep! What ranch are they located at?

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