I know this is a everyone is different type debate but i am just curious as to see what some of the more management minded hunters are doing. So for sake of argument lets say you owned your property and it was 500 acres with little to know hunting pressure on the surrounding properties. You have alot of bucks that frequent your feeders that you have on camera and your overall herd numbers are good.. You have been there for 3 years and know your deer. If you were going to start culling out some of your weaker genes on the property to help the overall heard and your mature bucks. What kind of cull management would you implememnt.
i.e 3.5 year old 7's or less
4.5 year old 8's?

First I would get a survey to what the ratios are and then how the CC is. Take care of the ratio or doe problem first then worry about bucks. A lot of "cull" issues will solve themselves with better nutrition from shooting does down to a good ratio. Allowing bucks to get more age on them also helps to see what you have.

X2

What is a healthy doe:buck?

I believe the doe:buck ratio veries depending on habitat, area and several other factors.

Exactly, too many people think EVERYwhere is too heavy in Doe pop, and it's not; working toward a balance is fine, but I see people get on a new place and instantly start shooting doe, with no idea what is there, what's been done before, etc. Too many people read an article, or a website, or see a tv show, and instantly start killing every doe.

In my opinion...

It would be tough to manage 500 acres to trophy deer, and "culling" a couple a year probably won't make much of a difference.

I'd just shoot a few does and only mature bucks.

If there is little hunting pressure around, chances are your D:B is fine because it works itself out naturally, and you'll get nice deer by letting the dumb young ones grow.

Don't overthink it on 500 acres. Keep you does in check and shoot anything 8 points or less that's 3.5 years old. Keep a log of the deer you see on a daily basis and you can get a rough figure of buck to doe and also types of bucks your seeing. If you have little or no hunting pressure and have some cover on your place with water, you can hold deer by putting in some food plots or implementing year around feeding and on 500 acres, you could put 1 large protein feeder in the middle of the place and have it covered and if you enjoy spending money and want to go big, you could put one on all 4 corners too. Who knows, in 5 or 6 years depending on where your at, it could all pay off.

And too many people rely solely on what comes to their feeder to give them an idea of what the land is holding.

how does everyone feel about missing brow tines whether it be one or both and not due to injury? would you cull some of those out if is appears to be a pretty dominant trait on your place?

I agree txshntr the feeders are not good places to try to get good counts and so forth they are a tool but you should not solely rely on what you see there. i personally am thinking in August of 15 spending about a week or so and doing a spotlight survey how do you feel about that line of counting? Helicopters are just to expensive ha ha ha

currently we have a 30 acre winter oats plot that is poping TShawn and we have agreed on doing a protein feeder in the center of the property during the offseason as well as year round feeding on the feeders that are in proximity to the boundaries of the property.

As well as 2 tanks and are considering putting in a 3rd this offseason as well.

I don't understand what impact those variables have on the ratio. Total numbers, yes, but shouldn't the ratio should be fairly static, somewhere between 1:1 and 2:1?

We are in the exact situation described by the OP except that without a doubt we have too many deer, and too many does. Our neighbors don't hunt much or if they do, they don't take many deer and especially not enough does. Figure on the 3000 acres in our near vicinity there are probably 30 deer being harvested, and it may be less than that.

Last year I shot four does and one mature buck. The year before, one cull (6pt 3.5 yr old), one spike and three does. Year before that, I think was one spike and four does. One year in there somewhere I took five does.

So far this year we've taken two mature bucks, one spike, and five does.

We take out every "framed" deer that doesn't have brow tines. We also take out all "crab clawed" bucks and 3.5yo or older that is under 8 points.

Without knowing the herd you are working with, it is difficult to say exactly what you should do. Biggest issue is determining the structure of the herd: ratio, population, CC, age structure, etc. All before you start culling. Then you need to determine how many tags you have and how many deer you can actually take out.

Also, it will depend on how serious about the management side you want to get. With non-hunting neighbors, it could help or hurt. The neighbors deer will be in and out of your place, so determining numbers is going to be difficult, but you can still get an idea. I like the spotlight surveys combined with TC at chum piles and visual sightings. Nothing is perfect, but it can be done.

All culling is going to do is determine which deer you allow to reach maturity and which ones you choose to feed. Taking a few bucks off the place a year isn't going to do much one way or the other for most places. Even with a strict management policy, you will not eliminate certain traits from the herd. On our place, we have shot every crab claw that we have seen for the last 20 years and I have a garage full of them. We have already killed one this year and I know of three others that will die if they step out.

Making your place more enticing and being able to have more mature bucks is going to make a bigger difference than management unless you get serious and really start making an impact. Some culling programs set a standard for each age class, the standard being based on the score of the buck. Say 105" for 2.5, 115 for 3.5, 125 for 4.5, etc. Others leave all framed deer alone and only take deer that show inferior traits such as 7 points or less, no brows, crab claws, etc.

Again, it will be based on what your end goal is and what limitations you are working within. Good luck

Your overthinking it. You have 500 acres, daily counts while hunting will get you close to where you need to be. Spot light surveys are OK, but your hunting deer on 500 acres that don't reside on your property, so my thinking is with limited or no pressure around you if your running feeders, your pulling in more deer from other areas that do not reside on your property thus giving you a more accurate count and idea of what to and what not to shoot. Now if you start getting neighbors that hunt, you have another problem to add to the equation. Most likely this scenario will happen after you have fed protein and managed your place and consequently your neighbors place for several years, aging some really nice bucks to shoot only to have your neighbors start hunting or start leasing and "poof" all your hard work is gone as your neighbors or their lessors harvest the fruits of your labor.

From my experience, the ratio is not static at 1:1 and 2:1 on very many LF places, especially without a management plan. On places that aren't hunting, it isn't uncommon to see ratios up to 5:1 or higher. We struggle to keep ours to 2:1 and kill anywhere from 50-75 a year. If you go to a feeder and even some of the food plots, you would think the ratio was 1:10.

There are regions that are different and that isn't a standard for everywhere, but on higher populated places, that has been my experience.

Agree 100%. Deer are glorified goats and will thrive in our climate and browse. Always view food plots and feeders as supplemental food sources, with natural browse being primary. And view your property as what it is, a very small piece of the entire county that can hold and maintain good numbers of deer.

It's not rocket science, nor does it require a degree in Wildlife Management as some might want you to believe.

I have spoken with the OP via PM in past and I know where his ranch is. I grew up hunting in Live Oak County and still have land there. So I have a decent idea of what to expect and what the population will be like. If he is not near a subdivision or his place was brown its down the when he got it he will have had more does than bucks. A survey will tell him how the ratio is. Blind counts can be very accurate if you corn long roads as far as you can see. Spotlight counts can work in some areas of the county but not in others. Your local TPWD biologist can give you and idea on density also. That habitat region his in changes quickly. A rule of thumb in South Texas on previously unmanaged ranch land for shooting does is 1/100 acres. If any ranch is at carrying capacity and you have idea on the fawn crop then you can just try to get a decent count on fawns at feeders for an idea of how many deer need to be removed. Blind counts will set ratios pretty accurately if you do them all season and keep them year to year.

Again, get a survey or couple done one way or another. See what the numbers show before pulling the trigger on any "cull" bucks. Your area has been in a horrible drought the past 15 years with only a couple of year of above average rainfall. This year the rains were spotty in the county and lot of months with no rain, some back to back. Decide on what buck to doe ratio you want and work from there. If you neighbors are on board work with them and everyone work toward the same goal.

culling is based more so on population density than deer quality. if you have a good feeding program and are low fenced then your population density is going to be difficult to manage.

for the most part though you determine how many deer your habitat is capable of supporting. you determine how many deer you actually have.....and then you shoot everything else retaining only the most desireable deer until your target density is achieved.

on a property with a sub-standard deer density I would not shoot any deer that wasn't a deer I would consider mature. meaning only your older trophy quality deer and or deer that are 4yrs old and have obviously reached their potential.

on a property with high deer density....I would pass all of my better/best looking bucks shooting only the ones that appeared extra mature. and I would shoot lots of does, all spikes, and lots of middle aged bucks that for whatever reason were deemed lesser than the others. so a nice 3yr old 8pt can be a trophy on one ranch...a good buck for next year on another ranch...and a cull on the next ranch. it all depends on the intensity of your management plan, your goals....how many deer are you wanting to retain and how many do you have above and beyond that to remove.

a big part of growing big deer is well managed habitat. you can feed deer all you want, but vast majority of people do not/are not able to feed enough to offset the effects of an over-browsed habitat. you can feed 50000 pounds a year on a mid-size ranch and all you will effectively do is attract deer from the neighbors. meaning yoru habitat will be even more over-browsed.

feeding is great. and I'm an advocate. we feed about 25,000lbs a year on our 320ac place. we shoot lots of does. all spikes....and all middle aged bucks that have any noticeable deficiency. missing brows, less than 8pts, etc. all other deer are left until 4yrs or older. our heaviest deer come in years of rain, and our lightest deer when its dry....the feed attracts them but its not enough to offset the habitat.

so the best thing you can do is aim for a lower end density population comprised of only your more promising candidates. shoot everything else. unless you just have few deer to begin with. you can never go wrong shooting does. and spikes....whether they will get bigger or not is irrelevant...if you're needing to harvest bucks for density then I'd rather shoot those spikes than middle aged and young fork-horns or 8 or 9pts. unless you are an enormous ranch or an intensly managed HF place...you will not see enough 4yr+ mature deer to meet harvest density. they might be there, but you won't see them. the more the bullets fly...the more they go underground. our big buck hunting is often cut short due to the need to get busy meeting management goals.

Thanks stxranchman. You as always have been a great help. I am sure i am not the only one who feels this way but you are a great help. I know you know the area very well so i dont doubt one bit that you are spot on. I have been plesently surprised with some of the bucks i have seen and got on trail cam out there already to this point and i know that here in 3 weeks or so that will pick up and i will see even more new ones showing up. I just hate looking at those 7's i have lingering around with the same characteristics in the baskets and all missing the same brow tine.

that is my real question is if i eliminate with the other lease members help of course that trait would it be benificial in say 2 years and beyond.

I just read an article where scientist say that it is almost impossible to manage the gene pool for open range/low fence deer.

since we've gotten more serious about density management....and harvested more does. we have seen our avg body weight increase.

for whatever its worth....we have shot more does than we have bucks. and have thus shot several specimens from each age bracket. all of our deer are aged by toothwear. we have quite a pile of jawbones. but our does peak in body weight at 3-4yrs of age. a 2yr old will be about 80lbs, a 3yr old doe on our place will field dress 100-110lbs. by 4 they will will be closer to 100 or just under, by 5 or 6 they will be back around 80lbs. we age deer as 1.5, 2.5, 3.5, 4.5 and 5.5+ we don't make any effort to distinguish past that. after 5.5 or 6.5 teeth are starting to look relatively worn and it becomes more so a guessing game.