Truer words never been spoken

It doesn't really show anything other than it was 4pt on 1 side. What is that deer going to be at 6yo? Odds are he'll be avg like the majority of other bucks in that same age class. I'm not looking for average, I'm looking for that deer well above average and it could be any deer out of the yearling class. A lot easier to make that call when you have more to work with as the deer ages. I actually have 1 buck now that a certain member on here was calling "gumby jr" a cpl years ago because of his short tines. He still has short tines, but he's about a 140" buck as a 4yo. You just don't know what deer will do.

The images not being shared these days are those of the small, basket-racked 10 and 12 points with their ten-inch spreads that are not being harvested due to antler restrictions, or being left in the woods because they were shot and later found to be illegal. IMO, these 2-1/2 year old deer represent the target group of bucks that AR's were created to protect. It seems obvious the little guy who produced that shed, most likely made it to become one of those protected, basket-racked bucks.

First I'm not a QDMA guy, I not a fan of the org. Ironically you a preaching TDM(a very high level trophy deer management program, that you don't have a 100th of the resources to get to).
You think I'm against killing spikes because you think I think they will all be monster. Not all deer will be monster period not all deer will even be average. But if your going to manage a place, manage it with the resources that you have. If you don't have the tags to kill more then 10% of your spikes, your wasting your time, and just looking for an excuse to kill more antlers. why not focus your attention on improving habitat, ratio and age class?

Second , Anyone whom has ever had a successful program will never say it's base it off shooting spikes. If they do they forgot all about their herd management numbers wise, age restrictions, ratios, browse studies and increased CC. Those programs that do shoot spikes are managing for an exception(an exception that would be there with or with out spikes)and don't want to feed anything less. They are also shooting onsite any thing under 8pts in every age class over 1.5. How many tags you get a year? And what's your feed bill?

You will never manage for the exception, you've said it a million times on here you prefer public where you have zero control over the herd. You want to shoot spikes knock yourself out, but before you do look at the biggest buck on your wall and tell me you are 100 percent positive it wasn't a spike. You can't.

Ironically there are lots of documented spikes at maturity that out score your biggest buck. That's not a slam to you, but more of an eye opener.

You keep preaching Kerr but cant even state what they did other then a pre written conclusion which you take out of context any way.

How thankful Texas deer hunters should be the TPWD made the decision to implement AR's throughout East Texas. The success of their efforts are undeniable given the deer now being taken in the region.

Or perhaps you wish to argue that point as well?

You just posted a ten point that's basically an 8pt. Same deer that you are proud of that probably wouldn't of made it past his 3rd birthday on any ranch that truly manages and kills spikes. Great deer with out a doubt that many would be very proud to take. Unfortantly you have zero ability to tell me he wasn't a spike

Agrue what point that prior to AR's two thirds of the deer killed where 2.5 or younger forked or better bucks?
You classify spikes as inferior(but yet can't define inferior),TPWD went what they considered lessor of the two evils to get AR's passed, appease your thirst to have to use two buck tags, in an effort to up age classes.

I got news for you those east Texas ranches where the monsters get killed, already had age class restrictions in place and been killing big deer long before AR's. Those monsters or stud deer where their long before spike tag

Perhaps that's why some appear to despise the TPWD's efforts so greatly. They have made it much easier for hunters throughout Texas to take home a trophy without having to pay some high-fenced rancher for the opportunity.

I agree totally, back when these counties were one buck only, no one shot spikes unless it was the only deer they saw( what I meant about desperation earlier) people killed 4s, 6s, whatever. The only thing AR has done is stopped your neighbors from doing this, maybe. Because if any one needed AR to police themselves, they were never trophy hunters in the first place. Very few people care about management, they just want to kill bigger deer. So shooting a spike every once in awhile is not gonna get you there!

Lol I'm not talking HF ranches or guided operations I'm talking well managed ranches and leases.

You really think big deer come from shooting spikes or the mind set that deer don't express their best antlers until maturity?

But you can tell what a yearling can do if he has 9 points or more his first year. Studies have shown that is the case that a buck with 9 or more typical points will outscore those with 8 or less points. A significant amount of difference in the average of two groups at maturity.

You bet Stx if I have a first year buck typical ten, I have had 2 of these over the last 3 years, I truly believe they will be better than average.

Not really, there's just more deer in the <8 pool to bring an avg down.

Won't make any difference if they never reach the potential of the bucks with 9 or more. Those are the ones I want doing all the breeding. A small number of the 8 or less will score what a very large % of the 9 or better will do. Not my study but I agree with the results based off what I have seen using the same criteria in 1.5 yr old bucks.

That percentage of <8 will exceed the total population of 9pt+ yearlings on the majority of places.

That % of higher end bucks you are wanting to shoot will be in that 9pt+ group of yearling 100% of the time.

That would be a statistical anomaly.

Spikes taste good, I'm having some fried backstrap right now. I have seen 2 spikes on my place in 2 years and this past weekend i dropped one. I saw other deer but I'd like for them to stay in the gene pool a few more years so I satified my hunger for venison with a "LEGAL unbranched antlered buck" Sure is tastey next to these over easy eggs, sliced sweet potatoes, bisquits and gravy. Carry On!

This is a train wreck and think that most of you that are posting on this really dont have a clue about any kind of deer management or deer genetics in general for that fact.There are some that are spot on and others that need to go do some observing in there stand and not hunting !One fact that gets me is DR. knoll studies where most done in a controlled environment and all though they were good studies they still are not proven but to him and his followers . You know when a spike needs to be taken off and when it is just a 1.5 year old and if you dont then you dont care and are meat hunting and thats great but if you leave a 2.5 year old and are tying to get some good high scoring deer in your heard then your just dumb IMO any spike over 1.5 that has not started to fork or totally change his character of his horns is not going to be anything .On the other hand this place we have now has so many bucks that it is really hard to keep up with whats the same ones from year to year when your seeing a lot of say 3.5 130'' buck and down to 1.5 10'' 8 points and everything in between i just dont get how a lot of people keep track of their bucks because it's hard work.

If your ranch is shooting 150-170 deer every year guess what, they will be there regardless of spikes or not. Your upper end is your upper end. By removing spike in theory you just culling at 1.5 and not at 3.5. In other words your just eliminating mouths not genetics. If you eliminated genetics then you would never cull again. Management is all about giving yourself the opportunity to gamble on upper age classes.

We also talking about a management system that most people can't do because the lack of tags or resources.

Kroll study doesn't prove anything since he is missing the most important part for proving improvement or not,, and that it's (time). He needed 10-20 more years to get any descent data.

I beg to differ !!!
You can control it ......so are you saying that all the big ranches should not shoot anything just let all the culls and management bucks go ? TO me thats what your getting at and if you can't control and genetics then whats the point of anyone trying based on your statement.I know the fact of more mouths eat more food that can be eaten by bigger or more desirable deer but that was not what i was getting at .

I've read a LOT of studies on both sides. Not only is there conflicting information, but one side can read a result of a study and manage to draw the complete opposite conclusion that the other side draws from the same study. Both sides also tend to get emotionally charge about it.

To address something you said above, it's not usually a mature deer. Some deer are spikes for life, and I think I've seen one spike that was 2.5 years old, but almost all spike bucks are 18 months old, not mature deer.
There are two reasons that TPWD advocates shooting spikes. One is the idea that most of the time if a buck is a spike, then his genetics will allow less antler development than other bucks in his age class. The other is that with AR's that protect only small antlers, you are selecting deer with small antlers to do most of the breeding. But by adding the spike tag to AR's you protect young deer that show good antler potential but not those that show poor antler potential. That's the logic behind it.

Many say that what an 18 month old buck has on his head doesn't correlate at all to future development. Other say that it does. Both site all kinds of theories and some facts. Both can find one single example that proves their point. The reason is because their is always an exception. The trouble though, is that in order to manage the population you can't wait until a deer is six year old to decide if you want him to breed. Almost everyone knows of a kid who was short all the way through high school and ten years later he was 6'2". We also know a kid that was 5'8" in fifth grade and never grew another inch. One side says that means we should harvest young deer ever. Personally, I say that while we know of exceptions, we also know that most tall kids in grade school will be tall adults and most short kids will be short adults. If that holds true for deer, then shooting spikes will limit their breeding to a portion of one season and most of them will not breed successfully, meaning that you SHOULD get genetically better bucks breeding for more seasons before they die. Those few deer that are exceptions should not outweigh the general rule. I read a private study conducted by the owner of a huge ranch in south Texas, where they caught deer using nets and helicopters and tagged them so they could track them. I don't remember exact numbers, but it was sown thing along the lines of about 10% of 18 month old spikes ever reached a score of 140" while 80% of 18 month old deer with 4pts or more reached a score of 140". To me, that shows that spike harvest is low risk/high reward. TPWD feels the same way. TPWD has done a lot of study in nutrition as well, and says that although poor nutrition can lead poor antlers, that even in the worst years at least some yearlings will not be spikes and therefore the very best of the age class will still e protected. I tend to side with them. Others tend to believe the exact opposite and think nothing should ever be shot until it's 5.5+. Still others fall in the middle. The only way is see managing deer by reducing poor genetics is todo it early and an 18 month old spike is the easiest way to do that reliably.