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Opinions on bullet/cartridge performance. #5409476 11/10/14 02:37 AM
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Hey all,

First off, I've shot about 30 deer. I started deer hunting in South Carolina and was taught to shoot them in the shoulder to break them down so they wouldn't run in the thick stuff and be hard to track. Most were shot with 150 or 180 grain 30.06 bullets. A lot of these deer dropped in their tracks.

Recently I've wanted to stop wasting so much meat, so I bought a .243 and this weekend, started shooting behind the shoulder. It's Winchester 100 grain hollow points (power max bonded).

I shot two deer this weekend. Each with one shot. There are excellent exit holes as you will see. The first deer was a doe quartering slightly towards me. I did knick the shoulder but it exited after passing through both lungs. There was an excellent blood trail with up to quarter sizes splotches of blood every couple of feet. The deer went 53 of my steps, so about 50 yards. The second deer was a cull buck. He ended up being three and a half years old based on the jaw, so we were happy to have him out of the population. He was perfectly broadside and the bullet did not hit either shoulder. Luckily, this deer ran towards my stand from about 100 yards away. He stopped and swayed a bit, then fell about 20 yards from the stand. He ended up going just over 100 of my steps from where he was shot. Again, there was a good blood trail.

What I'm worried about is tracking deer shot with this gun and load combination. I am hunting some pretty thick stuff and 100 yards can be a darn long way, especially if I am looking for a deer after an evening hunt in the dark.

Any thoughts as to why these deer might not be dropping more quickly? Pics are attached.

This is the doe as she fell, obviously not with the gun on top of her!


Here is the buck after I dragged him out to the road.



Last edited by UTAhunter; 11/10/14 02:42 AM.
Re: Opinions on bullet/cartridge performance. [Re: Duckhawker] #5409495 11/10/14 02:43 AM
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The .243 is more than enough gun but you might want to switch over to a soft point vs. the hollow points.

Re: Opinions on bullet/cartridge performance. [Re: Duckhawker] #5409501 11/10/14 02:45 AM
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What's the functional difference in the soft point vs. the hollow point?

Re: Opinions on bullet/cartridge performance. [Re: Duckhawker] #5409506 11/10/14 02:46 AM
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The only thing that makes me 100% sure I won't have to track, at all, is if I make a head or brain stem shot. I've hit vitals on small bucks big does, and big bucks with 308 inside 150 yards and 260 Rem inside 200 yards. All of them took some steps from where they were hit. Shoot the CNS and they're dead before they hit the ground. Course no one is going to make that shot on an even semi-trophy buck.

Looks to me like you're making very good vitals shots and your 243 is doing a fine job. Carry a roll of toilet paper in a ziplock bag in your pack. Its used for the obvious reason as well as a tracking aid. Lay a square of paper everywhere you find blood. I've done this in the dark and it works. You can look back amd see an obvious trail of little white squares.


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Re: Opinions on bullet/cartridge performance. [Re: J.G.] #5409510 11/10/14 02:48 AM
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I second switching bullets. A good ole 95 grain Sierra Game King spire point boattail is mighty stout medicine for a 6mm. Weight retention to go with expansion.


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Re: Opinions on bullet/cartridge performance. [Re: Duckhawker] #5409512 11/10/14 02:49 AM
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Looks to me like it is doing the job just fine. cheers

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Re: Opinions on bullet/cartridge performance. [Re: Duckhawker] #5409572 11/10/14 03:15 AM
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Thanks for the encouragement. I might shoot my current box at game and see how it does on another 5-10 animals including javelina. Then I'll switch to a little higher quality bullet and see if anything changes. Hard to tell too much from a sample size of two.

I will try the toilet paper trick. That seems useful.

Last edited by UTAhunter; 11/10/14 03:16 AM.
Re: Opinions on bullet/cartridge performance. [Re: Duckhawker] #5409751 11/10/14 05:18 AM
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Maybe try a different bullet. I have heard good things about Hornady SST 95 gr and Berger 95 gr hunting bullets. I just developed a load with the Berger bullet, I also shoot a 243 and look forward to trying it this year.

Re: Opinions on bullet/cartridge performance. [Re: J.G.] #5409765 11/10/14 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
I second switching bullets. A good ole 95 grain Sierra Game King spire point boattail is mighty stout medicine for a 6mm. Weight retention to go with expansion.


Problem is, Sierra doesn't make a good ole 95 gr Game King spire (sic) point boat tail.

And as a rule, Sierra bullets have a reputation of being rather fragile, and famous for losing their cores, not for retaining weight. I'm confused by your statement.

Re: Opinions on bullet/cartridge performance. [Re: JJH] #5409890 11/10/14 12:17 PM
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If you take time to learn your deer anatomy--and you are a cool, precise shooter--you can aim for the thoracic spine, which would be a little higher and farther forward than the shot in your picture. Such a shot would drop the deer DRT and waste almost zero meat. A longtime Brown County poacher-come-guide calls that spot the High Pocket.

Wanting a certain, sudden kill without wasting any meat can often be two mutually exclusive desires, however. The mono-metal bullets like the Barnes TTSX and Nosler E-Tips have become popular with meat hunters because they tend to retain almost 100% of their weight upon impact and don't produce all the secondary missiles that traditional cup and core bullets cause. All those tiny pieces of lead and jacket material flying through the body contribute mightily to all the bloodshot meat that must be thrown away.


"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple.....and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Re: Opinions on bullet/cartridge performance. [Re: JJH] #5409904 11/10/14 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
I second switching bullets. A good ole 95 grain Sierra Game King spire point boattail is mighty stout medicine for a 6mm. Weight retention to go with expansion.


Problem is, Sierra doesn't make a good ole 95 gr Game King spire (sic) point boat tail.

And as a rule, Sierra bullets have a reputation of being rather fragile, and famous for losing their cores, not for retaining weight. I'm confused by your statement. [/quote]

Sorry, 100 gr Game King spire point boattail. I didn't know they were famous for being frangible since they have not been in my world. I still have the remains of a 165 gr. Game King in 308. After passing through a buck front left to right rear where I found it. It was buried under the hde and did not exit. Took it home and it's 3/4" in diameter and still weighs 140 gr. That looks like good weight retention and expansion. Maybe your standards are different.


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Re: Opinions on bullet/cartridge performance. [Re: Duckhawker] #5409939 11/10/14 12:48 PM
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I've used Nosler BT in 243 for years with good results provided I stay off the shoulders. I have some Nosler Accubonds to try now provided I find something to shoot.

Last edited by dee; 11/10/14 12:48 PM.

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Re: Opinions on bullet/cartridge performance. [Re: Duckhawker] #5409958 11/10/14 01:07 PM
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Go get you a 30-30.


I eat everything I kill and I am to fat to be a bad hunter.
Re: Opinions on bullet/cartridge performance. [Re: J.G.] #5409960 11/10/14 01:07 PM
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JG: not trying to be a smart aleck. I know from your posts that you are a precise and analytic guy. And I would not question your expertise regarding long-range shooting, which is well beyond mine. But I'm wondering if you have ever tried to push a 6mm sierra spitzer boattail through the shoulders of a deer. I have. And have had much better results from other bullets.

And I f you test 243 deer bullets made by Sierra, Hornady, Speer, Nosler, in a test medium, and compare terminal performance, you will see the difference.

My personal experience, has been reinforced by reading articles by gun writers over the years and posters on the Internet for for forums.

Cup and core bullets work fine, within their performance window. A 168 grain at 308 velocities is well within that window and is entirely different then a 100 grain 6 mm.

Just one man's opinion. YMMV

Re: Opinions on bullet/cartridge performance. [Re: Duckhawker] #5410006 11/10/14 01:42 PM
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i have always shot behind the shoulder, but i use a 7MM Mag and put it a little further back than most. I shoot winchester ballistic silvertips and never mess up any meat. they rarely run and if they do they arent going far and they are extremely easy to track.

ballistic silvertips are great rounds, unless i start reloading that is all i will use

Re: Opinions on bullet/cartridge performance. [Re: wtmartinaggie] #5410018 11/10/14 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted By: wtmartinaggie
i have always shot behind the shoulder, but i use a 7MM Mag and put it a little further back than most. I shoot winchester ballistic silvertips and never mess up any meat. they rarely run and if they do they arent going far and they are extremely easy to track.

ballistic silvertips are great rounds, unless i start reloading that is all i will use


You can load them yourself if you start reloading. The silver tip is a Nosler Ballistic Tip with a lubalox coating and they sell them with or without the coating.


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Re: Opinions on bullet/cartridge performance. [Re: Duckhawker] #5410023 11/10/14 01:51 PM
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Thanks guys, so, could anyone recommend a few factory cartridges/bullets to try after I shoot up this box?

Re: Opinions on bullet/cartridge performance. [Re: JJH] #5410058 11/10/14 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted By: JJH
JG: not trying to be a smart aleck. I know from your posts that you are a precise and analytic guy. And I would not question your expertise regarding long-range shooting, which is well beyond mine. But I'm wondering if you have ever tried to push a 6mm sierra spitzer boattail through the shoulders of a deer. I have. And have had much better results from other bullets.

And I f you test 243 deer bullets made by Sierra, Hornady, Speer, Nosler, in a test medium, and compare terminal performance, you will see the difference.

My personal experience, has been reinforced by reading articles by gun writers over the years and posters on the Internet for for forums.

Cup and core bullets work fine, within their performance window. A 168 grain at 308 velocities is well within that window and is entirely different then a 100 grain 6 mm.

Just one man's opinion. YMMV


Well that's good. The whole point of this place is to share experiences. Had I suggested to the O.P. that he go get a bigger cartridge to deer hunt with that would have ticked off someone else. A 6mm is my minimum for what I feel comfortable shooting whitetail with. However, the cartridge has been doing it for a long time with great success. And if it were my project I would load a SGK since they have proven to be accurate. Don't most of us tout shot placement?


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Re: Opinions on bullet/cartridge performance. [Re: Duckhawker] #5410063 11/10/14 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: UTAhunter
Thanks guys, so, could anyone recommend a few factory cartridges/bullets to try after I shoot up this box?


I'd look at Nosler Ballistic Tip which Federal loads or the Hornady SST. Stay off the shoulders like you have been and you'll be fine.


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Re: Opinions on bullet/cartridge performance. [Re: JJH] #5410075 11/10/14 02:13 PM
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And O.P. clearly stated he was staying off of shoulders to reduce meat damage. So would a 100 gr SGK hold together through flesh, ribs, and lungs?


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Re: Opinions on bullet/cartridge performance. [Re: Duckhawker] #5410106 11/10/14 02:28 PM
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On my first safari to Africa, my PH made a very good point when he told me to shoot them in the heart. If you hit them there, they are dead. It's a big target surrounded by all sorts of other areas that will also kill the animal quickly if you miss the heart by a little bit.

I never take lung shots. You just never know how far they will go and what they will hide in. The bullet rarely hits bone, and even when it does, it's such light bone that it barely phases most bullets. Most animals will run off not knowing they have even been shot, just run because of the noise.

When I was going through my reloading phase I tried quite a few different brands and types of bullets. What I found was that the most accurate bullets in my rifle rarely mushroomed when hitting an animal. I also found that hollow tips never performed well and that they are the worse of the worse to use for hunting. Barns might hold a lot of there weight, but they are lousy in accuracy and they barely open up when hitting an animal. Several times I found that the metal that was designed to mushroom would be gone. It just breaks off.

In the end, I found Federal premium ammo with Sierra BTSP bullets. I've had fantastic results with them and very good accuracy. When I practice regularly, I've shot groups of five bullets under an inch at 100 yards. If I'm not shooting a lot, my groups tend do be as big as two inches.

Eddie

Re: Opinions on bullet/cartridge performance. [Re: Duckhawker] #5410233 11/10/14 03:18 PM
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You have a bullet that is expanding creating a larger exit with ample blood trail and people are telling you to switch bullets???

I wouldn't change a thing with the bullets.

Running deer is the nature of the beast when you shoot double lung. If you want them to stay put you need to hit central nervous system or take out the wheels like you did before. Break both front shoulders, shoot hi shoulder and get spine, shoot neck or head. That is about all that will get you a drt kill most of the time. Again your bullets look like they are functioning flawlessly to me I wouldn't change a thing!


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Re: Opinions on bullet/cartridge performance. [Re: Duckhawker] #5410297 11/10/14 03:37 PM
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Having hunted the thick tangles and thorn brush in S. TX. I have found that shot placement can mean the difference between recovering a deer and not. That said, the "high shoulder" shot is a guaranteed show stopper for any deer. When I'm hunting the thick areas, it's my shot of choice. If I'm hunting a more open area then I shoot tight behind the shoulder.

The .243 is more than capable of killing even the biggest of S. Tx. deer if the bullet is put where needs to go.

I've shot a lot of deer with a wide variety of calibers including .243, .270, 25-06, 30-06, 30-30, 7mm RM, 300 Win Mag, 300 Weatherby Mag, 308 Norma Mag and all the way down to the diminutive .204 Ruger. One thing remains true, if you shoot deer behind the shoulder they can and often will run some distance after the shot. The only way to guarantee that they are anchored in place is to disrupt the central nervous system. A high shoulder shot will do just that, while causing extensive lung damage in the process.


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Re: Opinions on bullet/cartridge performance. [Re: Duckhawker] #5410321 11/10/14 03:49 PM
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yep

Re: Opinions on bullet/cartridge performance. [Re: Duckhawker] #5410380 11/10/14 04:11 PM
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you are shooting a 243 and you are killing deer (which is the goal) a 243 is more than likely not going to drop them in their tracks unless you shoot them in the spine, neck, or head. tracking a deer anywhere from 30- 50 yards is about right for a 243. **I shot a doe in the neck and it did not kill her. She ran off and I thought I missed her. We found her laying down about 80 yards away and ended up shooting her again (killing her) as she stumbled off.....never again will I shoot a deer with 243 in the neck
**I have killed about 30 deer with a 243 Winchester 100 grain power point (and have probably lost 6-7 with a 243, which is why my go to is the 270)

Even for a 270, you can expect to track about 30 yards for a heart, lung shot (sometimes they drop, sometimes they run a bit)...just part of it
I have killed about 80-90 with a 270 (and shoot 130 grain soft points)

shot placement is THE MOST IMPORTANT!!

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