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Regulations Questions #4889928 01/06/14 03:55 AM
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KennyLee Offline OP
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I'm a pretty educated guy, but I find the TPWD restrictions to be a bit goofy to interpret. So, I have a couple of questions:

1. If I didn't harvest a buck with a spread greater than 13 inches, can I then take 2 during the spike/antlerless season?

2. What constitutes a spike? I have a broken up old buck I've been wanting to take out for years and started to do so tonight. In November, he was well over 13 inches wide, but pencil thin. All he has left is about 3 inches on his right side. The left is completely gone. I'm certain it's the same buck as I have pictures of him as he's been whittled down. He's mature, but chases others off the food, so I want him gone. Does he qualify? Can I also take another spike? (I saw 4 tonight, two that are probably 2.5 or older).

The regulation isn't clear stating that only 1 buck can be over 13 inches. So, can I take two "spikes?".

Here's the buck I described above. Pic is from last year as I haven't uploaded any of him this year. His tines this year were maybe 2-3 inches at most, but he was wider. Definitely in decline, but a hoss on the hoof.


Last edited by KennyLee; 01/06/14 03:57 AM.
Re: Regulations Questions [Re: KennyLee] #4889963 01/06/14 04:11 AM
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Mike Savoy Offline
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A broke horn is a spike. Just remember that any warden is going to question that broke horn.


Please post a picture of those spikes that are 2.5 if you have them.

Re: Regulations Questions [Re: KennyLee] #4889996 01/06/14 04:23 AM
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"Not more than one buck with an inside spread of 13 inches or greater may be taken."

That's a big ole boy. One unbranched antler, take him.

Re: Regulations Questions [Re: Mike Savoy] #4890000 01/06/14 04:25 AM
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KennyLee Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mike Savoy
A broke horn is a spike. Just remember that any warden is going to question that broke horn.


Please post a picture of those spikes that are 2.5 if you have them.


I'll try to do it sometime this week. 2,700 pictures in the last 7 days between two cameras. Granted, most are birds, squirrels, and coons.

Strange, I had two spikes I'd been seeing all season until the past 2 weeks and now am seeing several. The one I showed above broke up to become a "spike", but the others are true spikes. Most have a fork on one side or the other, but not both. Not sure where they all came from. I've only looked at the pics using my camera, so I'll need to get them uploaded to my PC to get a better look. Could be a lot of them broke-up to get to this point, but I wasn't seeing many young bucks at my feeders all year. Now I'm seeing many.

I should also point out that part of the reason for this possible "upswing" is that I upgraded the cameras in the last 3 weeks. Getting more, better quality, pictures than I've had in some time as the cameras I replaced were 3-5 years old each. Makes me wish I'd have done so sooner.

Re: Regulations Questions [Re: KennyLee] #4890031 01/06/14 04:37 AM
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Has to be a true spike (unbranched antler on both sides) for it to be legal in the extended doe spike season, after today 3 pointers and up are off limits.

Last edited by bossbowman; 01/06/14 04:38 AM.
Re: Regulations Questions [Re: bossbowman] #4890054 01/06/14 04:47 AM
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KennyLee Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: bossbowman
Has to be a true spike (unbranched antler on both sides) for it to be legal in the extended doe spike season, after today 3 pointers and up are off limits.


I thought that too. However, that's not what the regulation reads. Only specifies on the buck larger than 13 inches.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/regulations/outdoor-annual/2013-2014/counties/wise

Re: Regulations Questions [Re: KennyLee] #4890067 01/06/14 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted By: KennyLee
Originally Posted By: bossbowman
Has to be a true spike (unbranched antler on both sides) for it to be legal in the extended doe spike season, after today 3 pointers and up are off limits.


I thought that too. However, that's not what the regulation reads. Only specifies on the buck larger than 13 inches.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/regulations/outdoor-annual/2013-2014/counties/wise


Download the .pdf of the entire outdoor annual, like the one they give you when you buy your license, not all the info is there to the online page you listed. Bucks with any branched antler (as I said 3 pointers and up) are not legal after general season is over, ask your local game warden or call tpwd if you don't believe me, they will be happy to anwer any questions.

Re: Regulations Questions [Re: KennyLee] #4890080 01/06/14 05:01 AM
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Spike buck definition: http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/regulations/outdoor-annual/2013-2014/animals/white-tailed-deer

"A "buck deer" is a deer with a hardened antler protruding through the skin. A "spike buck deer" is a buck with no antler having more than one point. All other deer are antlerless deer. A spike buck must be tagged with a buck deer tag from the hunter's hunting license or applicable permit."

No antler may have a fork in it during extended season. Must be a true spike

Re: Regulations Questions [Re: KennyLee] #4890084 01/06/14 05:03 AM
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Its on page 68 of the outdoor annual, under the definition of a spike buck. The next to weeks are doe and "SPIKE" season, not doe and cull season.

Re: Regulations Questions [Re: bossbowman] #4890094 01/06/14 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted By: bossbowman
Its on page 68 of the outdoor annual, under the definition of a spike buck. The next to weeks are doe and "SPIKE" season, not doe and cull season.


I see that now.

So, that brings me back to Question 2 in my original post. Is that buck considered a spike since it doesn't currently have a branched antler?

If not for game cameras and watching these deer year round, if he was at 150 yards, all I would see is a fat old buck with a single spike coming out of his head.

Last edited by KennyLee; 01/06/14 05:11 AM.
Re: Regulations Questions [Re: KennyLee] #4890101 01/06/14 05:16 AM
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It is legal since no antler has more than one point.

Re: Regulations Questions [Re: bossbowman] #4890233 01/06/14 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted By: bossbowman
Has to be a true spike (unbranched antler on both sides) for it to be legal in the extended doe spike season, after today 3 pointers and up are off limits.
This


Life is too short, as is. Don't chance it.
Don't text and drive.
Re: Regulations Questions [Re: Erathkid] #4890291 01/06/14 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted By: Erathkid
Originally Posted By: bossbowman
Has to be a true spike (unbranched antler on both sides) for it to be legal in the extended doe spike season, after today 3 pointers and up are off limits.
This


Thank y'all for pointing that out. I honestly didn't know. I haven't had a hard-copy of the regulations in years and just go by what's online, but I only look at the counties where I hunt. Could have gotten myself in trouble.

Re: Regulations Questions [Re: KennyLee] #4890458 01/06/14 02:42 PM
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You said you saw 4 spikes 2 of which you believe are 2.5 yrs or older, are they true spikes or just a spike on ones side? Because FYI it is very very rare for a 2.5 yr old buck to remain spike on both side, in all my years I have never aged a spike buck older than 1.5 yrs old they are almost always fawns or yearlings. I think you may be overestimating the age on the buck as well, its hard to say for sure without more pictures and seeing the character in his face, that picture from last year looks like a 3.5 year old deer to me on first impression. When the get into decline at 7.5 to 8.5 years old you ususally start seeing their hips and backbone more and they lose muscle mass.

Re: Regulations Questions [Re: bossbowman] #4890855 01/06/14 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: bossbowman
You said you saw 4 spikes 2 of which you believe are 2.5 yrs or older, are they true spikes or just a spike on ones side? Because FYI it is very very rare for a 2.5 yr old buck to remain spike on both side, in all my years I have never aged a spike buck older than 1.5 yrs old they are almost always fawns or yearlings. I think you may be overestimating the age on the buck as well, its hard to say for sure without more pictures and seeing the character in his face, that picture from last year looks like a 3.5 year old deer to me on first impression. When the get into decline at 7.5 to 8.5 years old you ususally start seeing their hips and backbone more and they lose muscle mass.


The spikes I was referencing are only spikes on one side, so not true spikes. I haven't gone through my recent pics yet, but I'm betting several of my "new spikes" are just broken up and didn't start as spikes.

As for the buck pictured above, that picture is a year old and I'd have put him at 4.5 or better back then. That's the only picture I have of him without going to a lot of trouble. I've watched him for at least three years though I'll admit I don't pay a ton of attention to him as I never considered him much more than a cull. I'm the only hunter on 450 acres, so with only one tag to burn he's never been a target.

I have a few like him, two that are ancient, including a couple who don't and have never met ARs. Just part of the deal, but I don't have expectations of growing trophies, just healthier deer that might occasionally produce a good buck. I'm pretty picky having taken just 3 bucks in the last 11 years. Of course, the neighbors aren't so picky but I'm okay with that.

Re: Regulations Questions [Re: KennyLee] #4896639 01/08/14 06:06 PM
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1.Yes you can take two spikes.
2. It is my understanding that a broken horn will qualify as a spike, but consulting with the local GW is always the best bet.
3. 2.5 y/o spikes are rare and should definitely be shot.
4. This deer being in the decline is why many mature deer who get a pass should not have been passed. It is too hard to judge age on the hoof to insure that a mature deer will be better next year even if he survives. I shot a wide muley with no forks in the G-2's, crab claws in front, and very little mass. He was almost certainly better the year before.

Shooting spikes
1. Any legal spike should be taken out. Why roll the dice on a deer that is eating, when you know there are better deer that should walk. It will not only improve genetics, but often improves health of deer with good genetics.
2. This deer was probably a spike at 18 months.
3. Mature deer which do not meet AR's were almost certainly spikes at 18 months.
4. Spikes at 2.5 will very rarely meet AR's before death.


Last edited by ImBillT; 01/08/14 06:08 PM.
Re: Regulations Questions [Re: ImBillT] #4896673 01/08/14 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted By: ImBillT

3. Mature deer which do not meet AR's were almost certainly spikes at 18 months.
4. Spikes at 2.5 will very rarely meet AR's before death.


Where are you getting this information? I'd like to read the study.

Re: Regulations Questions [Re: Trout-killer] #4897250 01/08/14 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted By: Trout-killer
Originally Posted By: ImBillT

3. Mature deer which do not meet AR's were almost certainly spikes at 18 months.
4. Spikes at 2.5 will very rarely meet AR's before death.


Where are you getting this information? I'd like to read the study.


TPWD. They have sheds from spikes that were specifically bred back to does which were sired by spikes making progressively worse racks. Even with line breeding very few spikes were still spikes at 2.5 and most of those deer had worse genes than are found in the wild, where line breeding less common. By 3.5 50% of spikes were 8pts or better and judging from pictures many would meet AR's. 100% of deer 6pts or better were 8pts or better by 3.5. Deer that never meet AR's are rare, and usually were bad even for spikes. Considering that even with line breeding very few deer were still spikes at 2.5, I'd say that's a rare deer. I have personally seen one, so it's not like they aren't out there.

Considering that many spikes met AR's by 3.5, and that deer which were never spikes consistently out scored deer that had been spikes, I'm confident that most deer that never meet AR's were spikes at 1.5. Considering that some deer that were no longer spikes by 2.5 still didn't meet AR's at 3.5, I'd say those that are still spikes at 2.5 are even less likely to meet AR's in the future.

TPWD recognizes that AR's limit the harvest of bad deer in an attempt to improve age class, and allow the extra tags for spikes to avoid that pitfall. It only works if you harvest spikes while they are still spikes.


The study regarding like breeding to determine the heritability of antler traits was done at Kerr WMA, and proved that successively breeding buck with big antlers resulted in even bigger antlers and that successively breeding deer with small antlers resulted in even smaller antlers. The study regarding percentages of spikes and fork antlered bucks improving was a separate study, but it too was available on the TPWD website.

Mississippi also conducted a study on management and determined that
1. Protecting deer with 4pts or less resulted in worse B&C scores than random harvest.
2. Protecting deer with an inside spread under 13" resulted in B&C scores lower than random harvest.
3. Shooting yearlings(18months) with 4pts or less resulted in higher scores than 1 & 2, but remained lower than random harvest.
4. Shooting yearlings with 6pts or less improved B&C scores over random harvest.

Last edited by ImBillT; 01/08/14 11:09 PM.
Re: Regulations Questions [Re: KennyLee] #4897457 01/08/14 11:55 PM
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Line breed spikes you get crappy deer...got it.

Re: Regulations Questions [Re: Txduckman] #4897730 01/09/14 01:52 AM
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I would think a deer with a antler broken off would not be a spike
Originally Posted By: Txduckman
Spike buck definition: http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/regulations/outdoor-annual/2013-2014/animals/white-tailed-deer

"A "buck deer" is a deer with a hardened antler protruding through the skin. A "spike buck deer" is a buck with no antler having more than one point.

No antler may have a fork in it during extended season. Must be a true spike


Originally Posted by ImTheReasonDovesMourn
I'd ask him if he's pregnant. He missed a s__tload of periods.

Originally Posted by Hancock
I'll take "things that look like a uterus" for $200 Alex.
Re: Regulations Questions [Re: Trout-killer] #4897752 01/09/14 01:58 AM
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Explain line bred?

Originally Posted By: Trout-killer
Line breed spikes you get crappy deer...got it.



Originally Posted by ImTheReasonDovesMourn
I'd ask him if he's pregnant. He missed a s__tload of periods.

Originally Posted by Hancock
I'll take "things that look like a uterus" for $200 Alex.
Re: Regulations Questions [Re: hoof n wings] #4898391 01/09/14 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: hoof n wings
Explain line bred?

Originally Posted By: Trout-killer
Line breed spikes you get crappy deer...got it.



Line breeding:

Quote:
1. a form of inbreeding directed toward keeping the offspring closely related to an ancestor.


Originally Posted By: ImBillT
They have sheds from spikes that were specifically bred back to does which were sired by spikes

Re: Regulations Questions [Re: KennyLee] #4898905 01/09/14 04:33 PM
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It was covered above, but line breeding is breeding closely related animals. It was used in the Kerr study to see if good antlers were based on genetics or other factors. They tracked the antler growth from year to year of each deer. With each generation of spiked yearlings bred to does sired by spikes the antlers got progressively worse, and with each generation of forked yearlings bred to does sired by forked yearlings, the antlers got progressively better. Yes, they were better than any antlers produced at the beginning, as if genes actually improved(it's truly much more complicated, but the point is that you can improve deer on your land beyond the apparent genetic potential without introducing superior deer.)

The Kerr study did not actually call it line breeding and the term is usually used in a derogatory manner in an attempt to invalidate it's findings. No it was not exactly as it would be in the wild, but that doesn't invalidate anything.
1. The study proved that antler growth has a strong genetic component, and that bad genetics cannot be overcome by nutrition.
2. It also had a side benefit of tracking antler growth progress from year to year. The fact that the best antlers ever produced by former spikes barely approached the worst produced by deer born with two forked horns proved that
a. spikes are practically certain to be inferior to any yearling with forked antlers for life.
b. because many spike yearlings were 3.5+ before meeting AR's, you should shoot them while you can!
c. because i. 2.5 year old spikes were uncommon, even with unnaturally bad genes
and ii. More deer failed to meet AR's by 3.5 than failed to produce forked horns by 2.5, a 2.5 year
year old spike is unlikely to ever meet AR's.

It also confirmed what people knew for years. On one side of the argument are those who say "that spike grew up to be and 8pt" and the Kerr study proved that SOME spikes really did grow up to be 8pt deer. On the other side of the argument are those who say "if he is inferior at 1.5 he will always be inferior". The Kerr study also proved that this too was true. Therefore, if you want to carry more deer and let spikes eat food that could go to future trophies, and wait 3.5-6.5 years for that spike to be a small 8pt or a funny looking big 6pt. Then pass on those spikes, and they will continue to breed and prevent the best possible genetics from being expressed. Alternatively, you could shot spikes an protect young 6+ pt deer, and in 3.5 years most of the remaining deer will look better than any former spike ever could, and by removing spikes from the gene pool before too much breeding has occured, you are essential recreating the forked horn line breeding of the Kerr study except in a healthier manner, because you probably will not be limiting breeding only to family members. The result is two-fold. Not only are all mature deer the ones you wanted anyway, but genes are actually improving, so that with every year that goes by what you see get better and better.

Re: Regulations Questions [Re: KennyLee] #5536771 01/12/15 04:27 AM
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ttt, good info for this time of year...

Re: Regulations Questions [Re: KennyLee] #5536991 01/12/15 12:37 PM
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BillT, TPWD had a scientific peer review done, which basically trashed Kerr study and the entire science group. Have you read this? They try to bury it.

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