Let's keep in mind the real problem, an overreaching federal government hell bent on disarmament of the populace.

You can't find ammo? You had 5 years to read the warning signs.
You can't afford ammo? You had 5 years to read the warning signs.

Too many people get it in their heads that everything is going to be ok, nothing bad can happen here, etc. Welcome to 2013. The world has changed, and this country has changed. Ammo should be in normal supply by mid-summer, barring another psycho doing some psycho ****. But rest assured, if another one goes off on a rampage, retail pricing will be gone for a very long time. Stock up, or shut up.

Not directed at anyone in particular.

Because the people selling it ARE the people buying it. I'm not talking about dealers, I'm talking about the guys standing in line @ Academy with all of their buddies when they open (Dogcatcher and crew ), with the sole intention of snagging every box they can and reselling it. Creating false shortages for profit is wrong IMO, and as long as folks keep confusing profiteering with capitalism, it will never end. People like to talk about these guys getting stuck with a bunch of overpriced ammo or guns, but a lot of these guys are buying it for what EVERYONE would be buying it for if they hadn't gotten to it first. Luckily, I'm not hurting for guns, and I've got enough supplies to load for every gun I own, but when I have a friend telling me that they had to buy .45 ACP ammo out of a guys' trunk @ Academy for $1.00/rd or be forced to cancel his upcoming CCW class, there's a problem.
I'm not trying to step on anyones toes, and I meant no disrespect to MikeW (I don't even know if he has a daughter), I just want folks to realize that this IS a moral/ethics issue and we're standing by watching the bad guys screw over the good guys for a quick buck. There is no ammo shortage, and the manufacturers and most dealers aren't the ones behind the current stupidity. I'd be willing to bet a $100 brick of .22 L.R. that a good bit of the stacks and stacks of ammo for sale at just about any gun show, came from the same stores that most of us would normally shop at, if they had anything left to sell. [/quote]


Ok so now you have me really confused, which really isn't that hard to do. But you said the people selling it ARE the people buying it. Huh? This crap will end when everyone quits BUYING ammo from the guys that are flipping it. Hell they can buy all the ammo they want and ask what they want but without BUYERS it doesn't make a hill of beans. BUYERS are the problem. I'm not saying I like what some guys are doing but it is America and it is their right. All people have to do is quit BUYING the ammo from the flippers and this crap would end. No BUYERS no sellers!!! They can buy everything off of every shelf but with out BUYERS what are they gonna do with it. It's the people that are bitching about the prices but still pay 80 bucks for a brick of .22s that are the problem. Not the guy selling him the brick

I think he was trying to say the flippers are the ones buying up the store stock...

You are talking about buyers from the flippers. Two different sets of people, which is to blame? Both most likely. However, as I have seen first hand, if the flippers weren't buying up all the store stock, then people wouldn't have to buy from the flippers.

And as Mike said above, we have had ample time to prepare for this and had plenty of warning signs with the current mind set of Washington...

And when the people that werent prepared quit buying from the flippers prices will start going down. Everyone thinks that they have to have ammo right now so they are BUYING from flippers. If ammo is that important to them they should have never been caught with their pants down.

Isnt it illegal to sell ammo and firearms for profit when you dont have an FFL?

Because the people selling it ARE the people buying it. I'm not talking about dealers, I'm talking about the guys standing in line @ Academy with all of their buddies when they open (Dogcatcher and crew ), with the sole intention of snagging every box they can and reselling it. Creating false shortages for profit is wrong IMO, and as long as folks keep confusing profiteering with capitalism, it will never end. People like to talk about these guys getting stuck with a bunch of overpriced ammo or guns, but a lot of these guys are buying it for what EVERYONE would be buying it for if they hadn't gotten to it first. Luckily, I'm not hurting for guns, and I've got enough supplies to load for every gun I own, but when I have a friend telling me that they had to buy .45 ACP ammo out of a guys' trunk @ Academy for $1.00/rd or be forced to cancel his upcoming CCW class, there's a problem.
I'm not trying to step on anyones toes, and I meant no disrespect to MikeW (I don't even know if he has a daughter), I just want folks to realize that this IS a moral/ethics issue and we're standing by watching the bad guys screw over the good guys for a quick buck. There is no ammo shortage, and the manufacturers and most dealers aren't the ones behind the current stupidity. I'd be willing to bet a $100 brick of .22 L.R. that a good bit of the stacks and stacks of ammo for sale at just about any gun show, came from the same stores that most of us would normally shop at, if they had anything left to sell. [/quote]


Ok so now you have me really confused, which really isn't that hard to do. But you said the people selling it ARE the people buying it. Huh? This crap will end when everyone quits BUYING ammo from the guys that are flipping it. Hell they can buy all the ammo they want and ask what they want but without BUYERS it doesn't make a hill of beans. BUYERS are the problem. I'm not saying I like what some guys are doing but it is America and it is their right. All people have to do is quit BUYING the ammo from the flippers and this crap would end. No BUYERS no sellers!!! They can buy everything off of every shelf but with out BUYERS what are they gonna do with it. It's the people that are bitching about the prices but still pay 80 bucks for a brick of .22s that are the problem. Not the guy selling him the brick[/quote]

We all know that if everyone would stop buying overinflated ammo and guns, that the prices would drop and the supply would come back around. The problem is, Mr. Average Joe walks into WalMart to buy a brick of .22 to take his kid plinking, and is told that they are totally sold out, heads to Academy and hears the same story, so he panics and goes and buys that $20 brick from the DB at the gun show for $100, not realizing that that guy bought up all of the stock from WM and Academy in the first place. I heard one such DB, explaining to a potential customer that the reason he was charging $29.99/box for generic .223 WWB ammo was because he was one of their largest dealers (in Loraine, Tx?)and they told him that he probably wouldn't get another shipment until mid-June or later. I just laughed and walked off when the complaining customer asked if he took plastic.

I love these buyer/seller debates.

Firearms = Yes
Ammo = No

Which side of the fence are you on? I blame the buyers.

Which buyers? The first buyers or the second buyers that keep making the first buyers want to keep buying more to sell to the second buyers that buy from the first buyers in the first place?

I blame the manufacturers for kowtowing to the Feds and leaving us consumers high and dry

Yes

Difficult to believe these folks actually make enough money to be worth the trouble.

They are 2 to 3x the regular price
I bought 45 acp the other day 20$ for 50, 5.56 11$ for 20 rds

LOL. I blame the 2nd buyers!

Check out the prices on the clasified here and some other hunting websites. I saw some 223 for 2.5 times the store price on another hunting classified yesterday.

One guy sold a brick of 550 22lr on Gunbroker for $168 + shipping about 2-3 weeks ago.

The only thing that is hard to find around here in bulk is 22. I went into academy yesterday and they had 223, 40, 45, 9mm, 380 and 50 round boxes of 22. I have a ton of ammo but I still picked up a box of 9, 380, and 45...I guess I'm part of the problem but I told myself that from now on if I see it I buy it.

Seems like if one could sell 10, 20 or more boxes at that markup it would be worth the time but just a couple of boxes no. Have to search for ammo at retail locations, wait in the morning, maybe get friends involved because of ammo purchase limits. Then you gotta find ignorant people willing to pay that much.

Just don't see how it can be a sustainable business practice.

I am betting that will continue from now on with a lot of people. If it does then manufacturers will probably have to add capacity. People are going to have closets filled with ammo.

All you have to do is look at what Connecticut is working on and what other states want to do, and it is easy to see a huge black market for bullets being formed in response to legislation. Although I don't like it any more than the next guy, the fact that people are willing to pay such markups is the reason we are having the issue...

The same thing could happen with any staple, take bread for example. Lets say there is a couple of people (lots) who want to buy up all the bread in every store around town. They go in every morning or night (whenever bread is put out) and buy up all the bread on the shelves. They could then sell that bread for significant mark up because people would want bread. However, the issue would never spiral out of control if:
1. there was not a run on bread, for whatever reason. It is hard to manufacture a crisis involving bread, but one could imagine a future time where severe drought or some other cause (wheat gas?) could cause a shortage of supply.

2. people didn't buy the shortage items in large quantities and left some for everyone else to buy. the old adage about camp food applies here: take what you want, but eat what you take.

3. people were not willing to pay a premium for desired goods. if people just said I will eat my salami without bread, the black market for bread would vanish quickly.

So to sum up, a market exists because people can establish one. Until people stop using the market, the market will continue to exist. In the current culture, I find it increasingly difficult to imagine a time when such a market won't exist.

Yup.

Interesting analogy with bread but I see and ammo and food items as two completely different items. Ammo is not needed to live (and neither is exactly bread but is a food item in general).


However, what I meant about sustainable business practice with these "undocumented ammo resellers" is related to the following. The only way they can maintain charging high markups is if they are the only ones with access to ammo. Now that retailers are imposing limits it changes the situation. Plus manufacturers are no doubt going to get caught up with production and may even increase capacity in the coming months. Then there are also a lot of people that just are not going to pay those prices (like myself).

These 2x and 3x resellers I believe are going to be out of a market in the next couple of months. Plenty of idiots are no doubt going to run out of money as well.

Well, I think there is more to the bread analogy than you are giving credit...both ammo and bread are not needed for survival, but if push comes to shove, both are needed for survival.

However, I disagree with your second point all together. When is the last time you saw a fully stocked ammo section? I have witnessed personally and heard many stories of people lining up before stores open and wait for the ammo to be distributed. Lets say I have a job which requires me to be at work when this ammo distribution is taking place, and I can only get to the store after my work hours. But by then, all the ammo is gone. Where am I to get any ammo? Perhaps a black market dealer...I would guess there are many people in that situation right now and that is why the ammo is still selling for high prices, even though the stores are selling it with max quantity per person (ever heard of someone bringing a friend and paying them a kickback?)

Take another example as what is being proposed in CT and other left leaning states with talk of ammo certificates and registries of who can buy ammo. Lets say you were put on the "do not buy list" because you had a mental disorder known as depression, or ADD. If you can't buy ammo at the store, do you think you would pay someone a little more to get some on the market? If you want to keep shooting you sure will.

Keep watching what comes out of the north east and the west coast (don't forget the UN), and you will see a very viable black market thrive...

If the 2nd people buying from the 1st would stop then prices will return to normal. Thats why I blame the buyers not the sellers.

I agree that's the way it has been since nearly the beginning of the year. However, I'm predicting the current reseller markup situation will have notably diminished by the end of July. I just don't see it as being a sustainable business model for these resellers. I saved the link to this thread so we can revisit at a later date.




I agree that part is a worry but I don't see that coming to Texas. In addition, I'll be doing whatever legally possible to put pressure on our government officials so that does not happen here. I also agree ammo availability is a weak point that could be a run around for those attacking the 2nd amendment.

Nonetheless, I look at my Kentucky long rifle a little different nowadays. Sort of happy to have a ball mold and the knowledge on how to make black powder from scratch.

I don't believe these bad things we have talked about are going to happen but my family will certainly be prepared.