No,,, You're wrong,, see the genetics thread.

If you wanted a truely genetically diverse dog to pick up your ducks then you should have gotten a mutt. Hybred vigor and gene diversity. You more then likely won't see genetic disorders in a mutt...

Once we started making dogs into all the different breeds and bred for just those characteristics then the problems started. So your ole hunt'n pal Dude probably has some issues buried somewhere.

where did I say I wanted a genetically diverse dog????? I just want a dog that will go get ducks and look awsome doing it. (which was the initial intention of labs)

oh yea and I dont want a case of doggie Narcolepsy to rear its ugly head while she is doing it. But that shouldnt be a problem because her parents where not trial dogs.

and it seems more and more apparent that the "genetically diverse" you are talking about is happening in the breed because of trying to make the "perfect" trial dog or bench dog or even hunting dog. Why does it seem that every decade or so there is some sort of new certification that a dog has to have to be able to breed ???

My question to you as a breeder ( and any others that would care to add) is if there are so many checks and balances then why is the breed having all these problems... hips, eyes, EIC,??? I know dogs have registration papers but how do you know FOR SURE that they are, what they say they are? I mean really lets look at it... you have a dog that has a pretty good bloodline but if you where to add another name to the papers you could (in some cases) Double the price... and we all know what people will do for a few bucks...

No you didn't,, but you implied that since you have just a lab/hunting dog that genetically everything is peachy... It's not. They only time that will come close to happening is if you own a mutt.



When you're trying to make perfect there is really no genetic diversity... When you want common and mediocre then you breed No Name female to No Name male...

Thank goodness the genetic testing keeps expanding and growing because you can have the duck dog of your dreams and it will be healthy because of it.



It's having so many problems because the breed is sooooo popular. And people don't always breed ethically.

You know a litter is what it is when you get a copy of the health clearances from the breeder. You know the breeder. The breeder has a good reputation in the area and with their peers. You do your homework and double check the clearances with the certifying registry. AND YOU LEARN ABOUT THE BREED!!!

If a breeder adds another dog into the mix and they can get more for their litter, all the better. Chances are that dog will improve their female and better their breeding program.

Angie

What I mean by adding another dog is by pencil whiping the documents to make more money.... This is WHAT I HAVE LEARNED about the breed... Otherwise how did EIC become an issue?

Well you haven't learned squat...And you're using "pencil whipping" out of context.

You haven't learned a thing about the breed and you did no research... Obviously...

Go to the, "Question about breed standards" thread and learn something so you can make a more educated puppy purchase when you look for another puppy.

EIC did not come about because people were looking to make more money....

If they just wanted to make money,,, They would be hustling their litters in the Walmart parking lot....

Seriously....

Angie

OK, I thought my eyes were decieving me, but I really did read that, didn't I???? WALMART PARKING LOT??? Oh heck yeah... now we're talkin BIG BUCKS!

"Attention Walmart shoppers... We have a bluelight special on Lab puppies going on in lot B... "

Well,,, what they sell is pure profit... No expense... You can turn a quick buck on $50 a pup labs when you've done nothing but throw 2 labs in the garage and the puppies were whelped under the porch...

To 2 bit breeders $500 for a litter just paid next months rent.... Ha*Ha*Ha*

Angie

Hey, I'm not the one who referred to the Walmart parking lot as a cash cow!

well I love my dog she is all I ever wanted an then 10x more as far as my next pup, that will most likely be one of her pups in a few years when she has proven to be a great hunter and I decide to breed her. And guess what if 50 bucks is what it will cost to cover the expences then that is what I will sell them for OR GIVE THEM AWAY to good homes and people who may have more time than money.

Thats provided I can find a male, a garage, and a portch to complete the perfect breeding scenerio I will throw in a free squeeky toy with every pup I sell in the wal mart parking lot to sweeten the deal... or better yet if I time it right, I can make sure the pups are ready around the same time my girls are selling girlscout cookies and I could throw in a box of thin mints with the purchase of every puppy! Because as you say... I got to make the rent.


I must disagree with you about not learning squat... I have learned that breeders are either in it for the love of the dogs, and the dogs ability to allow people to come together and share a common passion in life... or they are arrogant know it all's that I have yet to come to understand what they are in it for....



YES Seriously....

I agree most of the "high dollar" breeders are only looking to pad their litter with acronyms and pedigrees as opposed to producing dogs that will fulfill someones life as a companion, hunter, family dog, etc.

Angie not trying to start anything but what is more highly sought after at your kennels, good temperament or more titles? As in you can choose one of two studs. Assuming both are equally healthy with clearances. One has no titles and a regular pedigree and the other has some titles etc. No titles stud is obviously a calmer dog and field trial stud is hyper and would be considered a handful for the average buyer.

This is a very hypothetical situation of course, but I am still curious about your answer.

Step away from the Milner/Stewart Kool-Aid for a second. Many a sane, calm, attentive, focused, tractable and amateur trained dog has come from field trial stock. I have an older dog that didn't come from field trial stock and she's more "hyper" than my pup that is from field trial stock. I think many people confuse hyperactivity with desire. The two are totally different.



That's where buyer research comes in. No one has to purchase an EIC affected/carrier pup. By eliminating all of the dogs out there that are either affected or carriers you would greatly reduce the breeding population. In so doing, you would also loose many of the traits that people are looking for in dog. However, with responsible breeding we can continue to breed these dogs to get the very best while at the same time eliminating the bad. Just to give an example; if a certain breeder decided to not breed an EIC carrier with a clear then we wouldn't have the new All Time High Point Derby dog and All Time High Point Chocolate Derby dog. I don't know if Ammo is a carrier or clear but I sure would be interested in a pup from her.



If that's your niche, then that's great. But what works for you doesn't work for everyone else. I personally want a dog that is a great hunting companion as well as a great hunt test/field trial dog (I do all of my own training by the way). I want to see a dog sit quivering at the line watching birds fall and throwing mud in my face when sent for the retrieve. There's nothing worse than watching a dog that has no style or desire retrieve. You may as well be watching grass grow.

I'm not Angie but I can answer your question from a buyers perspective. When I purchased my pup I wanted a breeding that would produce a pup that was calm, tractable, trainable and the pedigree had to be "stacked" with titled dogs. I got both.

Also, breeders choose studs for different reasons. There are breeders out there that are only looking to breed dogs for wealthy clients that plan to have the dog with a pro it's whole life. Then you have breeders that are only looking to breed quality pups for amateurs/hunters. Two totally different demographics.

I want to see a dog sit quivering at the line watching birds fall and throwing mud in my face when sent for the retrieve. There's nothing worse than watching a dog that has no style or desire retrieve. You may as well be watching grass grow.

+1

Here is the problem with this thread... There are about 3-4 people that have experience with the "high dollar breeder" "Hyper FT dog" etc. The rest are just trying to defend their dogs because they think the 3-4 are attacking their dog personally.

If they would read what Angie, Kbobbjr, and a few others are saying they would realize they are not attacking their dog. They are actually trying to help and educate them so they can get the best dog for their money and have a healthy, successful hunting partner.

I think this string bears out what I was saying. There are two types of Lab lovers... the ones that want the 'quivering' dog and the ones that want the 'quiet' one. Fortunately, there are still folks breeding each kind.

I think that that the 'quivering' dog and the 'quiet' dog can be one in the same..... If you do your homework as a puppy buyer, I believe you can have it both ways.... I think that is the point many are trying to make....

There is no doubt that they can be and are in many cases one in he same. I was just reading through some old post over at RTF and the owner of FC/AFC Cody Cut a Lean Grade was talking about hunting him every year. That is a #1 high point open dog. They don't get much better than that.

X 2

BTW - IronSpike, no where in the definition of "quivering" will you find anything that states it is synonymous with "noisy" or "loud".

You got a full registration on your puppy??? Not a limited??? OMG!!!

Just what AKC is bending over backwards to keep from happening... Pet quality should never be bred... Especially pet quality with no health clearances....

Angie

They breed one in the same with health clearances...

God women,,, quit breeding and get educated... Stop living in a vaccuum and get rid of your kennel blindness...

Angie

great post

Angie I think you are very intelligent on the subject of dogs, but you always seem to come off as "my kennel is better than yours." Maybe it is just me though. Might want to try a little less attacking and stick with your informed opinion. I am new here so sorry if I am stepping over any boundaries.

I think Angie is very honest and direct, and your right, she is very intelligent on the subject of dog's and breeding..... I don't think it is meant to be "attacking"....

By the way, I am still waiting on Ironspike to answer my question about her breeding stock....Oh Well....

jbois - I was looking at her breeding dogs and the main stock shows them as being EIC clear bloodline. My understanding is that EIC is a genetic disorder so all puppies from a clear bloodline (clear on moms and pops side) will continue the clean bloodline. I could be misunderstanding the condition though.

Gengo - I have read her web-site and I know the statement by each one of her dog's states that the "bloodline is clear" of EIC. I wanted her to clarify, as my original question to her was - does that mean each of her dog's have been tested and is EIC clear, or are they clear by parentage (meaning she can provide proof of that)? She has yet to answer me and I asked several times. Which makes me believe that neither are probably true. Is she saying that the bloodlines are clear because she has never had a problem? I want to say that she stated previously that she doesn't test her hunting dog lines, because she has never had a problem......that hardly makes them "clear". She has had great pride in saying she is one of the "ethical" breeders.....at the price she is selling those puppies as gundog's or the "jump start" puppies, the least she can do is test her breeding stock....