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Hybrid vs VLD
#6282803
05/02/16 01:00 AM
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Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,100
TackDriver
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I have never tried Hybrid, and how much difference does Hybrid have in comparison to VLD? I know that VLD needs a very short seating depth to touch the lands. I, mostly, am using Matchkings, but may be using Bergers soon for the Creedmore 6.5
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Re: Hybrid vs VLD
[Re: TackDriver]
#6282809
05/02/16 01:04 AM
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,053
bo3
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Hybrid should be more forgiving on the seating depth. Its possible to load to mag length with them however I still Los them long in my 300win.
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Re: Hybrid vs VLD
[Re: TackDriver]
#6282837
05/02/16 01:24 AM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 313
Ritter
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 313 |
With the combination of a tangent and secant ogive the Hybrid is more forgiving of seating depth. This makes it much easier to develop a magazine length load that shoots accurately. Hybrids also has a very high B.C. for its caliber/weight so they make a great long range choice. The Hybrids are designed as a target bullet so you may want to keep that in mind if you want to use them for hunting. I use them for my hunting in a 7LRM and have had great results with them.
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Re: Hybrid vs VLD
[Re: TackDriver]
#6282952
05/02/16 02:23 AM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 899
jeff1383
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The difference of BC between the two is minimal. I've had better results with 140 vlds in 2 different rifles than with hybrids. My experience has been that the hybrids ARE seating depth sensitive as to where the vlds have been super accurate between .010 to .070 off.
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Re: Hybrid vs VLD
[Re: TackDriver]
#6282953
05/02/16 02:27 AM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 899
jeff1383
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Here's a seating depth test using the 140 vld in a .260 I've NEVER seen any of my rifles shoot the hybrid this tight in a seating depth test.
Last edited by jeff1383; 05/02/16 02:27 AM.
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Re: Hybrid vs VLD
[Re: jeff1383]
#6283026
05/02/16 03:41 AM
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Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,100
TackDriver
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Here's a seating depth test using the 140 vld in a .260 I've NEVER seen any of my rifles shoot the hybrid this tight in a seating depth test. Looks like it shoots better the further out you seat them. I read somewhere that the VLD shoots better off the lands, anywhere from .025 to .075 Nice grouping.
Last edited by Big Stan; 05/02/16 03:44 AM.
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Re: Hybrid vs VLD
[Re: TackDriver]
#6283034
05/02/16 03:52 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,165
Judd
#1 Creedmoor Fan
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#1 Creedmoor Fan
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Every barrel is different...even if same caliber and reamer is used. I can't or won't explain it...but the hybrids are worth trying and a great target bullet. The 105 6mm is a impressive little bullet. Not a thing wrong with VLD's either...just pick your poison.
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
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Re: Hybrid vs VLD
[Re: jeff1383]
#6283175
05/02/16 12:34 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,083
J.G.
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Guess you went with the .050" jump.
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Re: Hybrid vs VLD
[Re: TackDriver]
#6283215
05/02/16 01:12 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,275
jeepercreeper
THF Trophy Hunter
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I'm about to order some 6.5 bullets and was about to get Hybrids. Dang, maybe I should try some VLDs as well.
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Re: Hybrid vs VLD
[Re: TackDriver]
#6283231
05/02/16 01:26 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,219
dee
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Hybrids are nice and would be my first choice over the vld if it's an option. That being said if you already have a great load with smk I would just run it.
"A vote is like a rifle; it's usefulness depends on the character of the user" Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Hybrid vs VLD
[Re: TackDriver]
#6283337
05/02/16 02:44 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 603
Dien
Tracker
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Four shots at 100, hybrids. Even Berger says the Hybrid are not as picky as the VLDs, but YMMV.
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Re: Hybrid vs VLD
[Re: TackDriver]
#6283578
05/02/16 05:00 PM
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 4,073
RedSnake
Extreme Tracker
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interesting read on VLD seating depth from Berger's site -- http://www.bergerbullets.com/getting-the-best-precision-and-accuracy-from-vld-bullets-in-your-rifle/The following has been verified by numerous shooters in many rifles using bullets of different calibers and weights. It is consistent for all VLD bullets. What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a COAL that puts the bullet in a “sweet spot”. This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands.
Note: When discussing jam and jump I am referring to the distance from the area of the bearing surface that engages the rifling and the rifling itself. There are many products that allow you to measure these critical dimensions. Some are better than others. I won’t be going into the methods of measuring jam and jump. If you are not familiar with this aspect of reloading it is critically important that you understand this concept before you attempt this test.
Many reloaders feel (and I tend to agree) that meaningful COAL adjustments are .002 to .005. Every once in a while I might adjust the COAL by .010 but this seems like I am moving the bullet the length of a football field. The only way a shooter will be able to benefit from this situation is to let go of this opinion that more than .010 change is too much (me included).
Trying to find the COAL that puts you in the sweet spot by moving .002 to .010 will take so long the barrel may be worn out by the time you sort it out if you don’t give up first. Since the sweet spot is .030 to .040 wide we recommend that you conduct the following test to find your rifles VLD sweet spot.
Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a target competition shooter who does not worry about jamming a bullet: 1. .010 into (touching) the lands (jam) 6 rounds 2. .040 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds 3. .080 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds 4. .120 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a hunter (pulling a bullet out of the case with your rifling while in the field can be a hunt ending event which must be avoided) or a competition shooter who worries about pulling a bullet during a match: 1. .010 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds 2. .050 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds 3. .090 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds 4. .130 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups in fair conditions to see how they group. The remarkable reality of this test is that one of these 4 COALs will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. Once you know which one of these 4 COAL shoots best then you can tweak the COAL +/- .002 or .005. Taking the time to set this test up will pay off when you find that your rifle is capable of shooting the VLD bullets very well (even at 100 yards).
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Re: Hybrid vs VLD
[Re: J.G.]
#6283708
05/02/16 06:35 PM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 899
jeff1383
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Guess you went with the .050" jump. Haha I did! It was shooting so well I had to sell it and buy another rifle for some odd reason
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Re: Hybrid vs VLD
[Re: Dien]
#6283712
05/02/16 06:38 PM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 899
jeff1383
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Four shots at 100, hybrids. Even Berger says the Hybrid are not as picky as the VLDs, but YMMV. Cool.....now shoot 3-4 more groups with .010 jump sequence and I bet you won't produce groups near that size. I'm not saying hybrids suck...they're a great bullet. My personal experience is they require a lot of work to shoot well.
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Re: Hybrid vs VLD
[Re: TackDriver]
#6283726
05/02/16 06:48 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,907
ChadTRG42
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The VLD's do shoot best close to the lands. They say there is a sweet spot jumping them, but I have yet to find it. I have tried the VLD's in rifles that can not get the VLD's close tot he lands, and they do not shoot as good. You can get moa accuracy, but I'm talking about the sweet spot where the groups go to one hole or 1/3 moa or better.
If I have a situation where there will be a jump, then the hybrids will be used. They will tolerate a jump better than the VLD's, and still shoot good. They are definitely less finicky, but not 100% immune to jump. The hybrids like a slight jump, where the VLD;s like to be touching (not jammed) or very close to lands.
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Re: Hybrid vs VLD
[Re: TackDriver]
#6283730
05/02/16 06:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,165
Judd
#1 Creedmoor Fan
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#1 Creedmoor Fan
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Posts: 19,165 |
Why would you want to shoot more groups with a different jump than the group that shoots like that? For what it's worth, my experience with the hybrids is the tune window is .004. It won't be like a vld and you can't tune them the same. You also don't have to chase the lands with them, if you find a seating depth that shoots... It'll shoot like that until the barrel wears out.
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
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Re: Hybrid vs VLD
[Re: jeff1383]
#6283754
05/02/16 07:02 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,083
J.G.
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Guess you went with the .050" jump. Haha I did! It was shooting so well I had to sell it and buy another rifle for some odd reason Because it was over. You needed another rifle to work on to get it to shoot, just to say you did. I've had friends call "this rifle shoots like crap!" and I say "bring it to me, we'll just see about that". In other words, "challenge accepted". It's a sickness some of us have.
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: Hybrid vs VLD
[Re: Judd]
#6283757
05/02/16 07:04 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,083
J.G.
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Why would you want to shoot more groups with a different jump than the group that shoots like that? Whut I'm talkin bout. That's one that you take to a PRS match and they put you on hundred yard paper shooting tacks and stickers of flies, and you say "bring it".
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: Hybrid vs VLD
[Re: Judd]
#6283827
05/02/16 08:03 PM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 899
jeff1383
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My point IS that in MY experience the hybrid IS sensitive to jump. I can't shoot them in my current rifle because jam-10 thou off is the ONLY place they shot well. At that length I'd have to single feed...no thanks. Bergers claim isn't 100% true in my experience.
Last edited by jeff1383; 05/02/16 08:04 PM.
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Re: Hybrid vs VLD
[Re: TackDriver]
#6283928
05/02/16 09:08 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,275
jeepercreeper
THF Trophy Hunter
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Well, I guess I'll find out. Just ordered some Hybrids.
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Re: Hybrid vs VLD
[Re: jeff1383]
#6284046
05/02/16 10:26 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,083
J.G.
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My point IS that in MY experience the hybrid IS sensitive to jump. I can't shoot them in my current rifle because jam-10 thou off is the ONLY place they shot well. At that length I'd have to single feed...no thanks. Bergers claim isn't 100% true in my experience.
Jeff, have you experimented with various jumps? No one that isn't benchrest wants a single shot rifle, that was built to be a repeater.
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: Hybrid vs VLD
[Re: jeff1383]
#6284129
05/02/16 11:22 PM
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 33,799
Buzzsaw
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Four shots at 100, hybrids. Even Berger says the Hybrid are not as picky as the VLDs, but YMMV. Cool.....now shoot 3-4 more groups with .010 jump sequence and I bet you won't produce groups near that size. I'm not saying hybrids suck...they're a great bullet. My personal experience is they require a lot of work to shoot well. Man you jerked the crap out of shot #5
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Re: Hybrid vs VLD
[Re: J.G.]
#6284146
05/02/16 11:29 PM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 899
jeff1383
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My point IS that in MY experience the hybrid IS sensitive to jump. I can't shoot them in my current rifle because jam-10 thou off is the ONLY place they shot well. At that length I'd have to single feed...no thanks. Bergers claim isn't 100% true in my experience.
Jeff, have you experimented with various jumps? No one that isn't benchrest wants a single shot rifle, that was built to be a repeater. Sure did. Loaded up and found my optimal charge weight. I was getting an SD of 4 at the load near the rifling. Then started to seat them in jumps of .020 all the way to .120. Nothing showed promise except for maybe .080 and I wasn't really impressed. I'm shooting the 130 hybrid now at .015 off which is only a OAL of 2.830 in my rifle which works great as I can chase the rifling as my throat burns up.
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Re: Hybrid vs VLD
[Re: TackDriver]
#6284212
05/03/16 12:15 AM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,219
dee
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
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You are the only one I've ever heard of that has trouble with the hybrids.
"A vote is like a rifle; it's usefulness depends on the character of the user" Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Hybrid vs VLD
[Re: TackDriver]
#6284253
05/03/16 12:42 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,165
Judd
#1 Creedmoor Fan
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#1 Creedmoor Fan
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,165 |
He's missing every window tuning them like a vld. Most everyone I know who shoots hybrids can find a window between touching and .025 jump.
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
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