So i got to thinking after cleaning my 7mag about how different barrels clean up and how it effects things. Ever notice how some barrels need to be cleaned constantly to shoot well and others dont. For example, my 260 long range rig never gets cleaned except for barrel break in process. I was told to do this by a marsoc sniper and nationally ranked long range shooter. Also by the guys at west tx ordnance who built it. On the flip side this custom 7 mag im doing a load work up for just opens up without a spotless barrel, needless to say its only cleaned with mild solvents and patches. Whats yalls thoughts and opinions.

If the break in procedure is done, is try running enough rounds through it to foul it up good. I know what you mean though, my 270win likes a dirty barrel, my 308 doesn't care, but my 30-06 and 22-250 want it clean. How many rounds does it take before it starts to open up?

A lot of shooters have noticed that properly broken in barrels will be easier to clean thereafter. This holds true in particular for button-rifled barrels that will tend to have a certain amount of chatter. Broken in right, these are some of the most accurate rifle barrels around. - Strangely enough.

I've noticed that hammer-forged barrels tend to like to be clean, as they will have a smoother interior that is dimensionally accurate to start with. This is not always true, but there is a clear trend with them. Some manufacturers do a better job at hammer-forging than others.

Old wives tales about the danger of cleaning, and the great need for fouling come to us from an earlier era when manufacturing tolerances were comparatively sloppy, and barrels steels were much lower in quality than what we see today.

That makes sense.

I never store any of my firearms with a dirty barrel for any length of time for the simple reason that powder residue holds moisture, and moisture is the #1 enemy of gun metal.

I also prefer a good "dry" lubricate as the last step in cleaning my gun barrels. Hornady's Gun Cleaner and Dry Lube was found to be one of the best metal protectants available.

8-10 rounds and it goes from 3/4"-1/2" to 1.25"-1.5"

Are you sure you're not just heating up the barrel? That seems like a pretty extreme accuracy jump in so few rounds.

Unless it was just going to be a hunting rifle, I'd sell something that truly showed such a difference between a clean/dirty bore.

I need more info about the rifle. What is the barrel contour (thin, heavy sporter, bull barrel)? What bullet are you running? What stock are you running, and is it bedded? Are you shooting off a bipod or sand bags? What are the groups doing (stringing up, down, diagonal) when they open up? Are you changing loads when the groups open up?

tells me you have

sporter thin barrel
not floated
barrel heat changed harmonics ; result in spread

Perhaps it's a result of too much residual oil left in the barrel after cleaning.

Also, my accuracy usually improves on the bench not because of changes in the rifle, but simply because I get better with my mechanics with each shot.

Its a rem mag sporter, so not pencil, but not heavy contour. Barrel has less than 300rds. Dont have bore scope, but rifling is strong.

150gr sirroco I over 61gr H4831 produces outstanding results with less than 10 rds thru itll Net 1/2 to 3/4 moa groups so far.

Completely floated and glass bedded

Shilen select match 1-9" they make a 90° angle/L shape group when it opens up.

Have not changed loads. While shooting.

I might not let it cool down enough, ill confirm this friday when i go shoot.

Gonna try 154 sst over ladder of 7828 and h4831. Then gonna sandwich method from there accuracy permitting.

Always do load development off front and rear bags.

1 patch kroil and 3-5 dry patches after in between loads.

Stock is a Custom walnut stock bedded.

Id hate to sell this rifle its gorgeous and a full custom german built commerical mauser. Only thing non original is the shilen barrel and T Brake.

Yeah, I always dryfire and do some warm-up shots before actually shooting for accuracy in load development.

I'd suspect that you're just cleaning too much, and/or letting the barrel heat up beyond an acceptable limit. Take a box of ammo out there, fire it off without concern for accuracy, let the barrel cool down, then do your load testing without cleaning it.

That sounds like a very nice gun, jorge. I think it is sometimes forgotten that this is a hunting forum, and hunting firearms are more or less the central focus here.

If it holds well through 8-10 rounds, that should be more than sufficient for any hunting situation where a 7mm Remington magnum would tend to be applied. - Personally, I'd be content if it held well through three rounds, which is two more than you are likely to need under most circumstances.

With my magnums, I work up a hunting load, but only shoot it directly prior to, and during a hunt. Through the rest of the year, I use a reduced load, often a starting load for recreational shooting and practice. This preserves the barrel and just between you, me and the gate-post - the paper targets never notice the difference.

Bingo, that's what I needed to know. First, put the Kroil down, and slowly back away! Repeat- put the Kroil down, and slowly back away! Kroil is a penetrating oil that is slicker than goose sh$t. I have used it once, and will never use it again on the inside of a firearm. It took me MANY fouling rounds to get the barrel back to shooting where it needed to be. The oil seeps into everywhere and dissipates and gets everywhere. Oil is great on the inside of the barrel for storing a rifle, but horrible for using it for cleaning and keeping consistency on groups and speeds. Ditch the Kroil, and go to a normal cleaning liquid. I use Butch's Bore Shine. You will now need to clean out the Kroil, so find a cleaning solvent (no oil) and give it a heavy cleaning to get any oil out of the barrel, including chamber, bolt lugs, EVERYWHERE. I don't recommend a wire brush, but you may need a brush and will need a heavy cleaning to get the oil out. Once you clean it thoroughly, dry it out with dry patches everywhere, and you will need to foul the barrel back in. This will take anywhere from 5-12 rounds. Use any basic ammo or fouling rounds you have. After this, shoot the rifle in about 3-4 rounds at a time and let the barrel cool. The Rem Mag Sporter size barrel is about a 3 to 3.5 lb barrel, so it's got some meat to it, and you may be able to shoot more than 3-4 rounds at a time. Let the rifle tell you how many rounds it can take before you see groups open up or begin to walk.

The main thing is to stop using the Kroil, or any oil based product. It's an oil based product, and you CAN NOT get any consistency on ammo when using something that slicks up the barrel.

Take a look at my link below when I talk about oil. Kroil is 10x worse than a standard oil, since it's a penetrating oil, and very slick.

http://texashuntingforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4661544/1/Rifle_Cleaning_for_deer_season

!
Note that accuracy falls off AFTER 8-10 rounds.



The theory that 'fouling shots' are the cure simply does not hold water in this case. - It appears to me that the Kroil is not doing such a bad job, after all.

The kroil never crossed my mind the guy i got it from is an old timer and hard core kroil user. Would hoppes or patchout work to get it out? I dont use it on any other rifle.

Apparently the old timer knew his stuff.

I only use Kroil for stubborn fasteners, pulling barrels etc. - but I will keep this in mind. - It certainly can't hurt to give it a try, see what kind of results I find.

It has never occurred to me to try using it in a gun barrel.

Ive seen alot of old timers use kroil in there barrels, i was just to cheap to buy it lol. He gave me can to use for cleaning. Ive used rem oil a lot though

I'm just going by my personal results, and the results of other shooters that I knew who used Kroil at some point. Any oil on the inside of a barrel will yield inconsistent results. After cleaning with an oil based product, shots 1-5 will have a different resistance going down the barrel. Shot 6+ will have a different resistance going down the barrel, and so on. The name of the game for accuracy and good groups is consistency. You can not get this with oil inside the barrel, period. What allows a rifle to become consistent is the same resistance shot after shot, with good ammo.

As for the old timer, I can't comment on how he shoots, his shooting discipline, or methods. If he's a benchrest shooter, then he may have his own methods. If you use Kroil every few shots, then you are creating a consistent resistance inside the barrel. If that's your game, then that's your game. I don't have the luxury of cleaning every few rounds. I shoot my rifles for many, many rounds at a time without cleaning. And I know that most shooters will be this way. So, starting out with oil inside the barrel and continuing to shoot the oil out, will yield inconsistent results. There are a few things in life that I am certain of, and oil inside barrels is one of those things. You will never see me using an oil based product before I shoot. I'm simply passing on my experiences, so if your results vary, then keep doing what you're doing.

Would you avoid using Kroil if it made the first 8-10 shots in a hunting rifle significantly more accurate?

I'm wondering as this appears to be the case, here. Kroil is pretty volatile stuff, 8-10 rounds sounds about right for a 7 Rem mag to torch it out of the barrel.

At 8-10 shots my barrel is fouled in, and should be shooting at it's best. But 3 shots (8-10) doesn't make a group in my opinion. I like a minimum of 4, and often 5 rounds. The main thing is to know your rifle. Shoot it enough to know what it likes and change only 1 variable at a time when doing something different.

In this case, the rifle is having consistency issues. It may shoot good for the first few rounds, but after that it opens up. My experience has been the opposite. But what I do know, is if you lose the Kroil, and go to a more traditional method of cleaning and shooting, you should see some better groups and consistency. And we have not even talked about the Kroil effecting the extreme spread (ES) of the rounds (the difference between the high and low velocity). With oil inside the barrel, you will be atleast 40-50 fps ES, and most likely in the 80-100+ fps ES spread. Factor this into a longer range shot, and you will be impacting high and low, just do to the ES of the ammo, and we are not even talking about groups or how good it's shooting yet. Oil inside the barrel is bad ju ju.

I looked at my target from tgis past week and i believe chad is spot on. I saw great shifts in poi. Had good respectable grouping for hunting but it was like i shot at different areas. I think this is a direct correlation to ES. Chad once again you the man.

So whats best solvent to take kroil out, hoppes or patchout thats all i have on hand or breakfree, but i think that is too slick.

Also it just came to me break parts cleaner would that work?

One plausible theory is that the accuracy node of the barrel changes as the kroil wears off.

In other words, it's not that the barrel is less precise, but that you're essentially taking ammo that works well in a given environment and using it in another. changing the friction within the barrel would undoubted affect the pressure and velocity, thereby changing the point in the barrel's wave at which the bullet leaves the barrel.

So get the oil out of the equation and restart your ladder testing.

Yes, the brake cleaner would certainly clean things out, but it might be too much. Hoppe's should work, but I don't use that product. I'd lean towards the Patchout, from reading out it. You'll need to refoul the barrel back in after cleaning.